Posted: January 9, 2012 in Blogging, Humans

So, I’ve been neglecting blog world here lately, due to everything from illness to meh, other shit to do, NFL, guns, blah blah blah….and cause it is Netganistan, you KNOW as soon as you leave shit will blow right the fuck up…

and so it has again, and so I been catching up, and it’s interesting because three people I got right here on my own blog roll are well, from engraged at/to less than thrilled/ to WTF with eachother.  Gin, Hugo, and Joan.  And I feel like I should say some shit, just cause…

I got all three of em on my blog roll for a reason.  I never agree with any one of em 100%, and never disagree with any one of em 100%.  Gin is the only one I know in RL, but I have talked to both Joan and Hugo, and promised Joan I would drag my gun nut self out to CA to scare her family for her one day…(long story).  But this recent blow up has me thinking about a lot of shit….

Wierd shit.  Very, very wierd shit.  And things like “privilege” and violence and crap o’ that nature.  Now, see, Joan here just knocked my dang boots off with being, IMHO, very brave…and saying some real truth.  I sort of feel like, as a person who has oh, had violence and hurt done to me, but also handed out my own fair share of that shit, it is never on the person who dished it out to say when things might be Okay or Forgiven.  One can come to  terms with themself and the wrongs they have done….but anything else?  That has to be given.  That is not something an aggressor can just give to themself and say “its okay, I changed, it’s all better now.”  Because nothing is EVER ALL BETTER, and only the wronged party can decide when its “okay” and things are…well, good enough.   And therein lies the difference between folk like me, I guess, and say, Hugo.  I don’t hate Hugo, not at all.  Not in the least.  But…well, as a person who has done some shady shit myself, sober and not, emotional harm and physical violence and all that crap…well, I can and have come to terms with my own shit, and I can live with who and what I am and what I have done…but it ain’t all good, and no one has to forgive me for it, and I sure as shit am in no position to ask them too, nor act like things are all okay and dandy because you know what?  Straight up, I fucked wth some other folk and sure enough, they are human and it hurts and affects them and that is not just…okay..or excusable…even with excuses (I was drunk, tweaking, sleep deprived, I’m an anti-social, blah blah blah blah…SO WHAT?) Can I live with the fact that I can be a real piece of work and have certainly done others wrong-without sugar coating it?  Yep.  Do I think that’s okay or that those folk I have wronged should forgive me because well, I’ve evolvoed or changed or would prolly not do the same shit unto them again?  Fuck No.  And that’s not now nor will it ever be my call to make.

And I also gotta say, when I feel I have been wronged, or treated unfairly… hell, Gin and Joan could attest to this…I tend to, oh snap back.  And go for the kidney shot.  I am, by nature, when I feel hurt or wronged, mean.  But…I am quick to forgive.  Forget?  Never, hell, I am a Scorpio- we never forget, but forgive, yeah…which is good, or chances are…well, I wouldnt KNOW people like Gin and Joan- but you know what?  Only Gin and I could agree to bury our hatchet and love on the Zombies, and only Joan and I could agree to let shit slide and be friends….No one else, not anyone from “my side” who may have hurt them, or “their side” who may have hurt me could make those decisions for us.  And hell, we all took some shit for doing so…and apparently we call all live with that- but it was our decision, as mutally aggressive folk and mutally hurt folk…to make.

No one else could do that- just us.

One can learn to live with bad shit they’ve done….but no one can do the forgiving except the wronged party.  And to me, that just seems like common basic knowledge.

*as for the privilege thing…I can tell ya, I have pulled some shit that well, if I wasn’t a short white gal?  It sure as shit woulda landed my ass in a jail cell!  And yep, I absolutely recognize that!


**and Gin, I forgive you for not liking Tebow, but I am still gonna wear my Tebow Jersey!

  1. ginmar says:

    Oh, man, he’s such an asshole. But I forgive you. 🙂

    Hugo’s always been a smirking little be-nice-to-the-MRAs type, and he keeps whining that people are being mean to him because he forgave himself, isn’t that nice for him? Why can’t they be nice?

    I don’t know Joan, though, but knowing you and knowing me, well, that’s got be interesting.

    Ex enemies make good friends, I find. Maybe because the things that drive you apart are the way you’re alike, while your differences are just enough to keep things from becoming an orgyfest of agreement.

    • Ren says:

      Eh, Hugo is sorta like me in that, well, he will at least read all views and kinda seems, to a point, to appreciate a free fire zone. Its informative to know what lots of people are saying.

      Joan is cool.

  2. Well, Ren, I do have a Scorpio moon. (I’m a Gemini with a Sag rising, too.) I am not unaccustomed to grudges.

    Thanks for this. I learned a long time ago that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. I also learned that my friend may also be friends with folks who hate me without automatically compromising our friendship. We’re — mostly — cleverer and more complex than that.

    • Ren says:

      scorpio in the house o scorp with scorp rising…read that as… I am fucked.

      Thick skin is good, but so is…detatchement and seeing ALL around.

  3. rootietoot says:

    Rabbi Joseph Telushkin informed me once (in a book called Jewish Wisdom) that forgiveness is ONLY the territory of the wronged. So you have a very Jewish attitude about that. I have come to believe (through behaviors of my shady past which I will not elaborate on) that it doesn’t matter *why* you do something wrong, it’s just as wrong, and just as hurtful. If I were manic and ran over the guy in spandex who annoyed me by having lovehandles and the temerity to wear spandex, his family would not say “oh the poor dear, she was manic and couldn’t help herself, and Randy really shouldn’t have been in spandex anyway.”
    All I know is I am Taurus, I don’t know if there’s a Pothandle Rising or Chewbacca Descending or what.

  4. Hugo, dunno if you saw my posts on the thread about you at “No Seriously What about teh Menz”–but it turned into quite a brawl. I made a similar couple of comments at Alas.

    I’d be interested in hearing your views, but if you are tired of discussing it, I certainly understand and never mind.

    As I said on those blogs, *I* won’t be writing MY 30-year-sobriety-anniversary post after all. People aren’t ready for that stuff. I will mark it in some way, but I will most assuredly avoid the tell-all confessional mode.

    • I just went and looked, Daisy. Hi! We haven’t talked in a while.

      Yeah, there’s so much to say about this. But even if you write me off as a fucktwit, which many do, there’s a message in this story that is uncomfortable for people in recovery. The message about addiction, about redemption, about forgiveness, is not a healthy one for addicts. I got a message from a woman I know, 5 years sober; she said “What I take from your story is that my skeletons should always remain in the closet. Honesty costs too much.”

      THAT is a bad takeaway,but people are taking that away. Like it or not, to some people I’m not just that male feminist dude, but that dude with 13 plus years of sobriety. And it’s partly my fault for disclosing so much about the program and my recovery, I suppose… but at the same time, people need to see you can come back from addiction.

  5. polly says:

    Thanks for this Ren. I was recently in a situation (nothing to do with this and I’m not 100% about what the whole row is about though I understand it was about demanding someone ‘forgive’ rape or similar) where somebody said something I found very offensive. And then sent me an ‘apology’ that was straight out of “derailing for dummies” ie yes I know I offended you, but I was playing devil’s advocate, and hey – I respect your view, why can’t you respect mine – basically implying I was just a nasty narrow minded person if the answer was no (answer, your view is homophobic and you quite clearly do not ‘respect’ my view). Needless to say this person has now been given the order of the boot cos I don’t need this crap in my life.

    I’m probably fairly shit at admitting I’m wrong myself (cos I’m never wrong, live with it) but at least I don’t then try to morally blackmail the injured party. And IMHO, such moral blackmail is always an exercise, or attempted exercise, of privilege/power. And deserves to be exposed for the bullshit it is.

    • xena says:

      Polly, this is what the squabbling is about:

      Tho I don’t entirely agree with Ms. Feature Writer Grace (I’m a liberal, not a radfem) I thought this article best reflected the issues that some feminists have with Hugo. It also demonstrates where they tend to exaggerate to an extreme that infantalizes Hugo’s exes. I find it hard to believe that he was ever a Kyle Payne. He strikes me as more of a Les Nessman (WKRP in Cincinnatti) or “Meathead”, Archie Bunker’s son-in-law on All in the Family. He’s more of a bourgeois liberal blunderer than a predator.

      And he was NEVER a racist! He married a Latina lady, and raves about their love. Ms. Grace was fair enough to provide links to some of Hugo’s better arguments in defense of his behaviour during his days at Berkeley, and his early years teaching at Pasadena, well over a decade ago. Pay careful attention to the HS posts she’s linked to. They offer the other side of the argument.

  6. xena says:

    Bah. The sun will be up in about 3 hours and I have a screaming migraine. Attempted sleep is an act of will that only makes the migraine worse. So here I am in Blogland, trying to amuse myself by rubbernecking some of the older posts I missed when my internet was down for all those weeks.

    Wouldn’tcha know it? I had to go over to Hugo’s and see what all the kerfuffle was about. I understand why you guys are arguing. That post pissed me off too. Way to make my migraine explode. As always, he’s not pushing any of my f buttons. I’m usually good with Hugo’s feminism. But the class privilege!!

    Anyway, my eyes are getting blissfully blurry. Maybe I’ll be able to wait till morning to see if I can respect myself in the morning. I didn’t come for a stitch-n-bitch, just to doublecheck what HS had to say for himself. I’m sure there will be plenty more on his blog when I wake up.

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