Oh Sweet Jesus, Ren, You have NO leg to stand on…

Posted: October 21, 2010 in Assholes, Humans, Rants, Sexism, Television, WTF???

(AKA Where in Ren goes ahead and ponders on things she really has no fuckin’ business pondering on and probably comes off sounding extremely hypocritical, but hey, shit happens…)

And, I preface this with while, yes, I am formerly involved in stripping as a profession and still make porn from time to time- I am less than a month shy of 39 years old and have not seen tween-teenager, or hell, even early 20’s, in…awhile!

So, yesterday, Vlad and I were having a conversation about the men in his workplace (white collar kinda joint), and he stated that it had been his observation amid the males in his workplace, the 50+ men were somewhat chauvinistic, but in that old school sense, the 30 and 40 something fellows seemed to be just fine with and professional to the women in the workplace, and aside from “gee, Mary, that’s a nice outfit” there really wasn’t any sort of rude or sexist or inappropriate talk about women- in or out of the workplace- even around the water cooler and such, but the guys under/around 30, these educated came up well white collar dudes…well, they were some rude, disrespectful, sexist, vulgar, crude, misogynist motherfuckers. Not when having to deal with women in a profession capacity, but all other times? Yeah. And not just the work place women- but all women, in general.   They were just downright…vile.

I stated that I had noted the same thing, and its true. Ask me who the rudest most entitled woman hating shit heads I ever danced for or had/have to deal with in, well, any capacity, from at a store to trying to get a damn beer at a bar…and I’ll tell you this. It’s not the truck drivers/construction workers/bikers/retail working/enlisted military dudes of *any* age. It’s not the bartender/waiter/landscaper/mechanic/fireman/ types of dudes of *any* age. It’s not the older, established white collar dudes. It’s not the academics. It is, without a doubt, the college educated white collar privileged dudes in their 20’s to early 30’s…of any race.

So, a Renegade wondered…why is this? Why is it that these dudes are so hating of and disrespectful to women…from “women like me” to their co-workers to, well, the lady who just happens to be walking down the street minding her own business? Why is it that these fellows, with the rather privileged up bringings, college educations, good jobs, college educated parents, and nice places to live are more misogynist that well, the Older Old School Dudes who undoubtedly always had moms who were at home and in the kitchen and well, there were things that women just couldn’t or didn’t do?

So yes, the pondering began…and it went in a very odd order, so I am going to write all stream of thought and discussion here.

The first thing that popped into my head is well, in my case, women like myself have always been treated like that- by in large- by these sorts of dudes. But the fact that *I* had noticed an upswing in this sort of treatment, not even towards, oh, stripper chicks of a certain class, but other women- all women, and that a guy had noticed it and actually started the conversation? Well, that says something. So I started thinking, and did that thing I hate doing. I immediately stated “I blame hip-hop culture.” Yes, I admit it, I said it, and to an extent, I believe it.  See, I am about to sound Really, Really Old, but, yeah…

I grew up on Hair Metal, Goth, Industrial, Punk and Grudge. Elvis and Johnny Cash and the Oak Ridge Boys Ruled my parents music collection. Sure, Hair Metal was all about Hot Chicks and Wild Parties and Sex and Booze…but you know, my social circle…we knew that shit was for Rock Stars! Sure, there were dudes who wanted to be Axel Rose, and gals who wanted to do Axel Rose, but the chances of that happening? We knew they were so slim it was just best to go to school and work our shitty part time jobs and maybe we could then afford to get the CD’s those Rock Stars made. Goth, Industrial, Punk, Grudge…that music wasn’t about sex and partying and asshole dudes and easy girls for the most part…more Life Sucks, the Government Sucks, You Suck, I Suck, we all suck…so lets kick the crap out of each other on a dance floor and declare getting a bloody nose “fun”, and maybe, if you were really hard core…shoot some smack and off yourself. Sure, yes, we had scantily clad video girls and not well at all veiled sexual imagery and violence and sex in our music and the media that went with it. We had bad boys and girls who would do anything, anything, to earn those boys attention. But sure enough, I can tell you…amid my crew? The girl who in 7th, or 8th, or 9th grade was known for giving blow jobs to whomever for whatever…social pariah, and the dudes who she did it for? Marked as asshats and viewed accordingly by girls who wouldn’t do that. And I can tell you this as well, blue collar and economically depressed as my background may be…my parents would have kicked the shit out of me for doing it, and kicked the shit out of my brother if he got some girl to do that (* more on this later…)

But see, I look around today at the music and the culture that surrounds it, music that is HIGHLY mainstream and cross cultural. Hell, I can turn on MTV. I can hear what the dude of the age range I am discussing and his younger heirs apparent are blasting (way too goddamn loud) in their spiffy little cars next to me on the road. I can hear it when they request it in a bar or put it on the juke box or tune up for working out in the gym… and a shitload of it? Not one iota of respect or even human consideration towards women in it. All women are bitches and whores. All women are good for and only good at one thing. Women are disposable and to be used then disposed of, because there are a hundred more just like her out there…and hey, guys aren’t the only one who buy into this shit…gals do to. They see the designer clothes and jewelry and manly eyes sent their way, the “status” of being with a dude who has things…how shakin’ that ass will get them on the arm and drinks and maybe even gifts from a guy…and well, the whole thing angers and depresses the shit out of me. There is a reason I tend to prefer hanging out in goth clubs (they are far more cheery), or redneck pool halls (far more safe) than, oh any place where these dudes and these gals will be. Because simply put:

I cannot stand seeing a couple of twenty something gals dressed in less than what I wear to work fake bisexing it up for and fawning all over and getting hung up on guys who are saying flat out what bitches they are, but buying them drinks so they can take them home and fuck them anyway. It angers me that these dudes think so lowly of these women, and the women take it. Contradictory of me, the professional object? Yeah, on some level, it is. Difference being I’m a professional and knew what I signed on for, and at least I get paid for it, and I don’t actually hope, expect, pray or dream that any of these folks will respect or see me as human, let alone love me. Hell, I also often times get treated better than these gals…which is, simply put…scary. But come on, if one is immersed in a culture where 13 year old girls are blowing boys in the school bathroom…how the hell do men have a chance of respecting women, and how the hell are women gonna respect themselves? Especially when everything, everything about it, says that women are simply here for that and do not deserve respect and should not get or even want it?

And then, I cast my critical and hypocritical eye even wider…television/movies/visual media. This will be short but sweet. When ninety percent of the media out there spouts T&A jokes, have cut up dead slut of the week as a plot, rape scenes, men like the ones I am discussing getting pussy thrown in their face nightly, getting away with killing the cut up dead slut of the week, women being graphically tortured, rich dudes who posses wealth and power having women all over them no matter how horrible they are, and every strong female character ends up in peril, or needing saving by a dude, or some complicated romance with a brooding, hot, bad boy…WTF do we expect?

And wider the eye goes! The legal system, where rape victims end up being on trial. Sure, she can be drunk, drugged, passed out and there can be a video of it…but hey, the slut brought it on herself!

When you show people that money will buy you anything: cars, clothes, fine things, status, admiration, people, “justice”…and then people are further rewarded for it…ummm.

Dudes, when our concern about women’s health issues such as breast cancer ends up in with a slogan like “Save the Ta-Ta’s”????

It just ain’t savory.

And then, my mind rolled back to maybe where I should have started, and hey, I am gonna use a quote from the music I grew up on to do it: ”

He comes from the home, a home where the parents are too busy to treat their children with respect….Adults create the world children live it. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult delinquency. And in this process, parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognize anything that is fine and good, or worthy of
respect…” – Ministry, “So What?”

Because you know what, I think there is some serious validity to that right there. Adults create the world children live in. And have some responsibility to them. And generally, I think, if respect is instilled and given, respect will survive-through whatever kind of media blitz and through whatever kind of pressure. If folk of any kind get some basic shit straight early on, and that is reinforced…well yeah, generally, it holds true. It may get battered around from time to time, it may get tested, it may get eroded, but if it is reinforced…hell, it just might hold. But if it is not there at all? Well shit…

And maybe that’s what’s up with these dudes. All these things, but that base one, right there? If its lacking…well, what the fuck can we expect?

Not much, I reckon.

 

(* I mean, I may have turned out twisted as hell, but in my house, much was lacking, but there was some common human respect.)

I also realize as a gal who does and has done what I do and have done for a living, I well, yeah. But I stated right out of the fuckin’ gate I was gonna be hypocritical. And frankly, I really do try to confine my for adults only shit to adults. Hell, have you seen my civilian wardrobe? Nah, I’m not perfect, but I do make some effort…I’m an adult, who has a hand in shaping the world children live in, and I get that.

 

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Comments
  1. Sheniver says:

    It is not a good time to raise a child when one can’t find regular “jeans” for a 4 year old girl due to them all being “low rider” styles and only could find itty bitty bikini’s for her earlier this summer. But I saw other people’s kids in those clothes and well that’s already setting the “next” generations ideals as to what is “normal”.

  2. Lord Sodit says:

    Maybe it’s not just ‘women’, maybe it’s that these tossers don’t respect anything or anybody including themselves and nobody respects them either (and they do nothing to warrant respect). Why?

    OK you flaunt your white Trash credentials, I’ll flaunt my Socialist ones. 1980 – Reagan and Thatcher dragging the West ‘kicking & screaming’ out of the 20th century and into the 19th.

    More than ever before, it’s what you have that matters, not how you got it, not your intelligence or knowledge or even education (formal or self-taught), not how you behave, not your relationships, not really even what you do for a living – it’s the con-man and the cowboy that get the dosh and the admiration for working the con, and the fool doing a good job that loses out by taking longer. It’s all short-term and intended to be.

    The older people that bought into that were surprisingly ex-Hippies. There’s even a couple of contrasting pieces on the Web about it – one saying how the Tea Party is the natural home for aging Hippies (still can’t be certain that isn’t ironic) the other showing what a sell-out and con it was. Also in my view when “Women’s Liberation” loosening men up from traditional ‘masculine’ values became subverted into “feminism” ramming them down women’s throats as well and often giving images of women as the feeble females that WL had been all against.

    Now we see the children and their children from a period that did its damndest to ‘divide and rule’ and set everybody against everybody in their own sordid money-grubbing and laugh its way to the bank on the backs of these suckers. Women are just another commodity. they are just another commodity to women. Cue in feminist “Women need a man like a fish needs a bicycle” True, but “need” never ruled out “want”. The idea that *people* could actually want *people* and that men and women could enjoy being together out of desire or pleasure and not ‘need’ – AWOL.

    Underneath it all maybe, a terrible insecurity. They are the last of the Yuppies. They are Superior People, either because they were born to it or because they made it while their inferior peers did not. But they know it’s a false superiority because it lasts as long as they are useful objects of exploitation too. Tomorrow they could be out on their ear maybe worse off than the slob driving a truck because he can probably do a dozen other things if he gets a driving ban and they couldn’t mend a fuse.

    Time to remember that there’s more to living that waving money at it. That goes for the Socialists as well. They screwed up by forgetting that most people work to live before they live to work, just imagined a different master running the same old workhouse.

    You can bet that in most cases the Suits won’t argue with women as directly as the Hoodies because, like ‘Happy Days’ girls aren’t worth arguing with, but the Hoodies are treating them as like themselves without added sexism because they know they’ll get as good as they give and that’s not some timid girly half-slap. Why do the women put up with it? They’re the same sort.

    Self-respect is a strange thing. Every seen a Romanian gypsy beggar woman (the men never seem to beg)? Other beggars show some kind of self-respect. They are doing their job and they get or not. Romanians keep up a permanent whine in the hope of payment to shut them up. They seem to have no self-respect whatsoever and while others don’t inspire any particular like or dislike, these are universally detested (even – especially – among other Travellers and street folk for giving them a bad name) and happily rob and defraud charities that the rest respect because it’s ni their long-term interest.

    But when they are paid to stop the wheedling it’s still money! They don’t care. I’m probably wrong about the self-respect, they belong to their own tribe from one of the most backward countries in Europe and the rest of us are just a resource. Those women putting up with the men – there’s sure to be plenty others that you don’t see because they keep well away like the ‘decent’ Roma trying to overcome the bad name the others give them. The ones you see don’t care what the men think of them because they are exploiting them as a resource too. Like to like. Blame it on Reagan.

  3. A young woman was just telling me this recently, that the guys she meets on Match.com are all self-centered assholes who start talking filth almost immediately. She seemed very upset and I felt so bad for her lack of good choices.

    I think older men learn from experience how to talk decently to women… but you are saying these young men get the girls even when they talk shit? Not good at all; then they will never learn. I always assume the older men figured out WHAT WORKS and learned to be nice that way. If these guys can be assholes and it still “works”–well, that means they will be assholes their whole lives, what an awful thought.

  4. I don’t have a whole lot to add, but your experience tellies with my worst help desk customers, being the 20 year old management students.

  5. I can see you working on this, Ren….but it’s not just MTV or WWE that’s to blame for all this coarseness of late.

    When we have a “journalism” that becomes reduced to a game of “Gotcha” chasing after the latest juicy sex scandal rather than actually reporting relevant news; when we have churches that are more concerned about grabbing money and shaming everyone who isn’t of their particular sect and punishing those who don’t march to their agenda while allowing their “leaders” to openly flaunt those very mores they want to impose on everyone else; and when we have the hypocrisy of “mainstream culture” bitching and moaning about “slutification” and “pornification” while still raking in the cash from exploiting fake rage about same….well, it’s understandable that people don’t respect each other nearly as much.

    And, of course, the libertarian socialist in me will also note that when everything is reduced to a commodity to be bought and sold to the highest bidder rather than something that is shared freely with those in need; well, we see the results explicitly.

    It’s far too easy in this culture to pretend to be a righteous Puritan by day, and yet act like an extreme libertine (or, at least, attempt to play one) at night. When we debunk these fools and start bringing some actual balance and adult perspective, maybe then we will see some more humane efforts of culture.

    Nothing hypocritical at all about your rant, Ren….since you state from the top who you are and how you live, and how it’s not for everyone. You can’t have real community without respecting individual diversity.

    Anthony

  6. rootietoot says:

    I think it’s a culture sinking to the lowest (and easiest) common denominator. Respect, generosity, kindness all take effort.

    • Lord Sodit says:

      All those things take a degree of self-esteem or else they feel like kow-towing to superiors. If you’ve been deprived of that self-esteem by right of being respected as a person. what is ‘politeness’ between equals feels like grovelling to self-appointed superiors. Feminism inverts the idea to make politeness between equals look like grovelling – because the whole basis of feminism is that women are inferior victims of some eternal ‘patriarchal’ plot (so are men!)

      Passing some shops today, I notice that a lot of the ‘dummies’ show women with contorted faces, screaming or threatening. Why?

      It’s all part of the ‘in yer face up yer arse’ ‘culture’. Why? Why present women as aggressive? Male dummies aren’t like that. But they *were*. Many years ago, men were portrayed as screaming “don’t mess with me” Marines. And what did those supermen macho marines really do – they OBEYED ORDERS.

      There’s a cultural trend today to tell girls to fight, boys that by tradition they have been in charge (and don’t feminists remind them so!) so they need to swagger even harder than the girl image they are presented with – or else they might be gay. Today. if your gentle-man teen is suspected of being gay, then he should be ‘happy to be that way’ and not imagine he might ‘compete’ (isn’t there a less aggressive word?) with the ‘real’ macho guys able to wrestle these aggro-females into the subordination he’s told is traditional – ‘feminists’ among the first doing that telling.

      Back when ‘feminism’ was still called “Women’s Liberation” it was women like Ren who were seen as these tearaway uninhibited females ‘giving themselves’ to men thinking they knew better than their mothers.

      Now, ‘feminism’ mostly means what those mothers and even grandmothers stood for that “Women’s Liberation” wanted ‘liberation’ from!

      The biggest mistake they ever made was to blame men, because ‘blame’ means ‘responsibility’ and ‘authority’ and ‘power’. “Women’s Liberation” got up ‘on its hind legs’ and said “We can do and men are no superiors, let them learn from us”; “Feminism” whines “Men are superiors that won’t let us do but we can try to avoid them so they won’t squash us, and to be as good as them” – whingy whingy wimpy feeble-feminists keeping the women in the same line as workaholic money-power-obsessed men instead of the old threat to that dehumanization.

      When I follow Ren’s links to Feminist sites, I read what conservatives were saying against “Women’s Liberation” about 1970, and when I read her, it’s a sad blast from the past of what my WL friends were standing for then.

      Why sad? Because in 40 years, she is still fighting the same old battle, but now against the ‘reactionaries’ who hijacked that flag and call themselves ‘feminists’. It’s a fact of life – read ‘Animal Farm’ (not the CIA-backed cartoon for which Orwell’s widow tried to sue) At the end, the pigs and men walk out and the animals cannot tell which is which. All revolutions end that way, even the failed one of the 1960s – and maybe all revolutions fail but set the ground for evolution eventually.

      • Ren says:

        Dude, just no…fucking….no.

        REGARDLESS of my gender, I am , period, one of the most In Your Face flat out Aggressive Kiss My Ass in Hell people around. Do Iget my freak on, sure, Am I Proud WT, yeah, and you oh, know WHY I can wear jeans shorts and get and AK and be..me? Feminists, old and new school. You Think I I like all feminists and all of what they say? Hell no, do I respect their thoughts ad the FREEDOM they have now to say them? Yeah.

        I’m a mean freakin’ cracker, and gender does not change that shit, cause that is base line.

        And I disagree with you about Reagan too. “Greed is good” was MY generations mantra…I’m almost 40, and something has changed.

        Oh, and Animal Farm, the actual book? One of my favorites, but that comment, YOU sound very “Some ANimals are More Equal than Others”

  7. Lord Sodit says:

    If you check, you’d see that I raised ‘Animal Farm’ because is all about the Revolution becoming “Couldn’t tell the difference” – that is, anybody can use the words but do they mean the same things by them? By ‘Feminist’ I mean the present generation that calls itself that, not what they might have been in the 60s & 70s. As far as I’m concerned, today’s feminists are more like what those (young) women were against – the perpetual feeble female victim with this gift between her legs for men that they should realize was Great Sacrifice if she thought them worthy …. Sheet of ze Bool!

    I think you’d rightly feel insulted to be called ‘feminist’ (as would most women) but not for the reasons they pretend of men wanting women ‘subject’ – for just the opposite reason, that ‘feminism’ today is a weird kind of inverted propaganda that seems to think everybody else is living in ‘The Republic of Gilead’ and they’ve seen The Light, where in fact it’s the other way round, that it’s every other woman except for religious fungi that know perfectly well that they might even have a bit more freedom in some ways that men haven’t caught up with yet.

    If you’re a ‘feminist’ then it’s strictly in the 1970 sense, not the whinging cringing men-terrified helpless crew it means today! If any girl believed them, she’d believe she had a choice between the Taliban or swapping horror stories with ‘da sistas’ about how awful it is to be female – and most of ‘da sistas’ not far from Mother Superior Taliban themselves! What you are living is what ‘feminists’ 1970 expected – sure not what ‘feminists’ 1980 to now stand for.

    A quote from a girlfriend who was running Mensa’s ‘women in society’ group 1980 “To me, ‘feminism’ means a good job and sleeping with any man I fancy; I’m very worried about this new generation that thinks it means quivering under the table in a Lesbian huddle the moment a man looks at them”. I go with that, and that her ‘New Generation’ is what ‘feminism’ means today. What it meant to her and before is what we call ‘normality’ today. I would add that part of that earlier ‘feminism’ was men changing the baby, cooking dinner and taking time off work because the kids were sick or a woman can’t look after a new baby and herself all alone. We’ve got there – but not nearly as much as Scandinavia.

    Grant the USA some leniency because it has always been a much more macho society than Europe and sexism and racism still stalk the land to far greater extent. You never even managed equal pay for equal work did you? Let alone the (often dubious) ‘work of equivalent value’.

    As for Reagan? So you were teenage then. It didn’t die with him. In fact I’ve just been looking at Huffington Post stuff that shows difference between rich and poor even increased under Clinton. But it *started* with Reagan. We are still living in the shadow of his belief in the Almighty Market and no motivation except dosh. If you were a teenager then, then older people might have had their experiences of different values, but Reagans’s were the ones you grew up with as the normalized social ideal, so it would be very surprising if you suddenly discovered others just because his henchman Bush 1st was replaced. That swing to short-term uncaring indulgence was very strong and we are still living in its aftermath. Other extremes like Fascism and Communism, even Apartheid, fell hard with a feeling of end and start again. Bill Clinton was no revolutionary end to a failed system! Neither is Obama.

    I can be dam

    I may respect the fact that anybody has freedom to say anything but I don’t respect what modern feminists or religious fundamentalists have to say for themselves and I don’t see much difference often between them. They both have a warped view of the world, and whether one objects and the other wants doesn’t make it any less warped! It’s like Christians and Satanists, Catholics and Protestants, Christians and Muslims, both sides have to agree on far more that is meaningless to atheists than they disagree about.

    I can be damned thankful to ‘feminism’ old-school too because it meant that making love was (just that as well as ‘having sex’) with *friends* on an equal level enjoying good times and intelligent conversation as well. That’s why I loathe the ‘new school’ so much, stuck in their fantasy of the worst of some 1950s ‘Happy Days’ world where sex was ‘degrading’ for women and to actually like your girlfriend made you suspect of being ‘queer’!

    But why do you think there was such a rash of tinted 1950s nostalgia during the Reagan-Thatcher 80s?#

    There is still something of a cultural clash because I see you as feeling it necessary to make points that on this side of the Atlantic are taken as just ‘normality’. We never have treated even the most traditional female stereotypes as ‘inferior’ in themselves. Whatever men might have thought women did that was degrading for themselves, women also thought “men’s work” degrading for themselves. Even if there was difference, there was mostly equal respect.

    And just as today, it is the ‘feminists’ full of condemning women as ‘Pawns of the Patriarchy’ (that they are so desperate to join instead of to end) when they step out of line to show they feel equals in sex and relationships with men instead of inferiors, who glorify traditional men’s pre-occupations as superior and denigrate women’s instead of accounting both equal and granting women some maturity to know what they are doing with their own life.

    I see modern feminists as something like anti-slavery protesters – yes, sadly that problem does exist in some parts of the world, but what you are protesting about has existed only in your own mind for generations and all the fuss you are making about yourselves actually detracts from addressing those genuine problems, where most of yours are your own uptight Puritanism that can’t imagine a woman as sexual in her own right or relating to man as an equal.

    Pretty much predictably, there is more gap between modern feminists and Camille Paglia, Germaine Greer etc than ever between those names and most ‘normal’ modern women wanting today’s ‘feminism’ about as much as trade unions want Communism

    • Ren says:

      Heh, spokem like a man!

      For the record, I’m a libertarian- politically.

      But here is the deal on that other shit…. I’m 5’2″ and weigh 100 pounds soaking wet with my boots on. DO I worry about even stepping out my own front door at night, even WITH a gun? Yep. Hey, I’ve had a roofie slipped on me- thank god I drink like a red neck and managed to know SOMETHING was off. I know women who were not so lucky. Hey, were I ever to be raped? Guess whos sexual history would be on trial. Oh, yeah, Mine! And actually , in my field of work, I do make more than men in the same field….guess what I am selling? Oh, right, Porn!

      Ever been threatened by a woman who turned you down, like in an immediate fight of flight way? No? I have. Ever watch the news and get sick whe you hear about female gential mutilation or rape as a tool of war or how it is common practice to cut the breasts of women prisioners of war in the Congo? I have.

      Pawn? Hell, I am the fucking henchwoman, but shit, do not be so fucking arrogant as to tell me women need have no healthy caution towards men, or the world in general.

  8. Lord Sodit says:

    Me mate Des is ex-SBS, much the same as US SEALS and he worries about walking home in dead dark when the bars are chucking their derelicts out. Last week three arseholes murdered a Thai Kickboxing champion. The city has always been dangerous and no amount of expertise or firepower can oppose a brick from behind. Of course a woman has and always has had more to worry about than a man. Men wanting to promote their dominance over other men mostly distance themselves from rape and even where they do not, the victim doesn’t risk unplanned pregnancy.

    Women face some shit. What the more recent generation of ‘feminists’ (the ones you call rad-fems) don’t acknowledge is that men have always faced a different kind of shit too. We may have a ‘cultural clash’ because your ‘rad-fems’ are to me, just plain ‘feminists’ and what less extreme ‘feminists’ demand is a case of “Where have you been since 1960, that’s the equality that you don’t like”.

    The only people I would know to call themselves ‘feminist’ would be those ‘rad-fem’ extremists, like the only people to parade themselves as ‘Christian’ or ‘Muslim’ are fucking nutter extremists where the rest just get on with being ‘normal people’ with that particular unimportant quirk that you go to church or don’t eat pork and bacon, and nobody gives a toss.

    It has nothing to do with ‘Patriarchy’ or ‘Femi-Nazis’, it is all ‘them on top staying on top’ and do so even when they pretend to be leaders of some ‘revolution’ or other.

    I apologize if I implied that women don’t need to protect themselves. Of course they do and men do and sexually motivated assault features more for women, just plain violence for men.

    Have I ever felt threatened when a woman turned me down? I think that’s backward: it’s the woman likely to discover that the ‘love’ a man professed is just pure sex-for-him when she turns him down. Women despise, call you ‘queer’ but for the most part do not make the advance to be turned down and do not associate violence with sex the way that men can (except in porn!). So no, I can never know a woman’s fear of sexual force.

    As to who would be on trial were you raped – yes I understand the need to ascertain that a woman is not just playing nasty to a man she teased unti lhe couldn’t hold it, just as a woman can be. Playing “Come outside for a good time, satisfy me now fuck off” is nasty and morally I would not object to forcing her to complete the deal she implied.

    Wish I could earn as easily from sex as a woman, because I worked in computing and saw every single ideal I believed in sold out to buggery – as much by idiot Unions as by Management. I’d love for women to be as ready to enjoy men sexually thrilled and teased as vice-versa instead of putting the women who do admit to it down.

    A friend used to do that in her late teems and got away with it because she was in a small place with a bad reputation that kept local men off her. At the same time, because she was a friend, I have some idea of her motivation and however exploitative and ‘wrong’ I think it, and did at the time – hell, why should only men be sexual criminals? – I can’t help feeling that at 18, I would have metaphorically pissed in their face too.

    Female genital mutilation – well male is accepted in our world, and who can say that for girls it is worse because we try to protect girls more? And women having their breasts sliced off (at least they don’t make tobacco pouches of them), men castrated and both sexes their arms and legs cut off by bloody disgusting SAVAGES.

    As for that other filth, some affects boys too but most important is that it is very different from some ‘feminist’ banker bringing a case because she only got 100s of 1000s instead of millions undeserved bonus! Those ‘feminists’ should be looking at where people – not just women – suffer *real* oppression.

    The women shouting ‘feminism’ and calling you everything their grandmothers did are all obsessed with themselves, not Mother Theresas dealing with the women (and men!) who really have it bad in backward parts of Africa and Asia.

    But, to finish, in case you got me wrong, when I say ‘feminist’ it’s what you call ‘rad-fem’ because what is often called ‘feminist’ in the old 1970s style is just plain taken-for-granted normality round here. When a woman calls herself ‘feminist’, that is like ‘Trotskyist’ or your Tea Party calling Obama ‘Socialist’ for letting Big Business Banks control Government instead of vice-versa. What ‘Feminism’ claimed to believe in, most people take for granted and often don’t want – “I don’t want equality [with men] I’d lose too much”.

    Likewise Black ‘Womanism’ – we don’t want the right for women to work when we’ve been doing that since our ancestors were kidnapped here, we want men to respect themselves as equally responsible for the kids they start and then bugger off! I have far more sympathy with that (because I grew up in that kind of ‘Waltons’ society) than with “ooh-don’t touch me Sir Jaspar” [rad] ‘feminism’.

    • Ren says:

      Dude, that is YOUR opinion of Feminists and Modern Feminism…yours. Not some universal truth or even widely accepted take on the whole deal…you, yours, not a mass majority.

      And I know folk who proudly call themselves Christians (or countless other things) and they are just fine- not “nutters”. Any extremists can make a whole group of people look bad, but also does not make them a majority.

      ANd I don’t care how hard a woman comes on to a dude or what she says- shes never under any obligation to “close the deal”. Jesus.

      And, well, there are, oh, some women out there who associate violence with sex. Trust me on that one.

  9. DebSens says:

    Thanks for the mansplanations Lord Sodit!

    I think its a factor of a lot of things……What really worries me is how everything from movies/music ect seems so dumbed down….you can be entertaining and fun as well as being a critical thinker…but it seems like its the lowest common denomenator is rewarded

  10. Lord Sodit says:

    Dead right – MY interpretation, nobody else’s. I’ve never heard anybody call herself ‘feminist’ except what you call ‘rad-fem’ and in real life nobody at all. They are a web phenomenon and what most of them except the most fanatical extreme separatist sexists are calling for is the world the rest of us have been living with as ‘normal life’ for the last 30 and more years.

    Feminists are the only people who’ll bore you to death explaining how ‘The Patriarchy’ suppresses women, especially when the women think of themselves as equal – while most women look on blankly wondering what cave these promoters of macho superiority have been hiding in for the last 50 years.

    Of course if a woman – more like, a girl – deliberately winds a man up in order to play sex domination over him, then she is a fool taking a risk with tourists that could be out of there before police begin searching, but like I said, men with any sense soon cop on and leave that kind as alone as women do smarmy ‘gentlemen’ playing sugar-daddy expecting to crawl all over them later.

    There were reasons that my friend played that kind of men up. Reasons I think were bloody stupid, but I wasn’t a teenage girl full of punk resentment. She grew out of it soon enough and maybe it was part of feeling how she could be in control instead of being controlled. I don’t see any real difference between “Now you’ve licked me out, go play with yourself if you want any relief” and “I’ve had my thrills and if you want more, finger yourself”. But the motivation, turning it back on that particular sort of man and feeling some sort of Authority – well life is just very different when you’re 17 and 18 faced with blokes wanting thrills for themself and to hell with you, not even relaxed “That was fun” one-night-stand.

    Stupid, reprehensible – yes. Understandable – also yes.

    • Ren says:

      I acually know a fair amount of women who call themselves feminists and are nothing like what you describe

      • Lord Sodit says:

        Of course they would not be because different country and culture and all that. To me, ‘feminist’ is what you call ‘rad-fem’ and most of what you call ‘feminist’ is just plain normal women like you. You have both extremes, the mucho-macho blokes as well as the macho-feminists that if they do appear here, we look at as “You WHAT?” Go back to Planet Hitler.

        Hellz bellz, you’re stuck in a country where it’s controversial to wonder whether Gawd really did create the universe in six days. You’re a bit rougher than the typical female here because we don’t play with guns (officially) – but when you’re as cooped up on top of each other as in overcrowded Europe you have to be a bit more tolerant.

        Women haven’t called themselves by the name ‘feminist’ partly because our laws accept women as equal to men (my grievance that they still do not accept men equal to women) and partly because it has the same kind of association that ‘Communist’ did in the American past that nobody would ever use that name however much they believed in original ideals because of what it had ben made into.

        You might know women who’d call themselves ‘feminist’. They are in a much more macho society than I am, so ‘feminist’ here more often means your ‘rad-fem’, and that is how I take it.

        I oppose some ‘feminists’ because they look to fit women into their fantasy of masculine superiority instead of saying both sexes are equal, and men should learn from women AS EQUAALS.

        ‘Equality’ is the last thing you hear from [rad] ‘feminists’ – but the first yuo would have heard 40 years ago.

  11. Lord Sodit says:

    Agree absolutely. I’d hate to argue with Ren about ‘feminism’ because there’s most ways they are her enemies, but what they claim to be (or to have been) very much her reality.

    In the end, the words don’t matter, the use they are put to does, and that use went into overdrive from Reagan-Thatcher on using ‘people’ to suit Big Business just as much as across the Iron Curtain, ‘Big Business’ was a ‘State’ that old Communists like Trotsky and the rest that were murdered never wanted and tried to prevent.

    Bugger the words – quote the Bible (St. Paul) “By their deeds you shall know them”. There’s far more sexist stereotyping today of stomping macho men and feeble subordinate women among [radical] feminists than in any real life. All that ‘Femi-Nazi’ noise is like kids shouting in the dark “I’m not afraid of ghosts” when if they really did feel as equal as women usually do, they would get on with choosing which men to accept or reject as women have always done – hell, female animals even before they could be called ‘women’!

    That lot are still horrified at the thought of women ‘giving it’ to men easily because they’ve never got round to imagining they could actually be equal and want ‘it’ with as much control over the process as men – and if they find men who won’t accept that, they tell them to piss off and find better men, maybe ones that as teenagers they called ‘gay’ for not acting like closet rapists and actually liking and respecting them.

  12. Roy Kay says:

    This kind of reminds me of “Sergeant Kroepke” from “West Side Story”.

    If I had to pick a few things that would actually help, rather than blame, I would pick:

    1) Inculcate a general spirit of respect for people, regardless of “status”. EVERYONE, from a bum in a gutter to CEOs and Presidents get “Sir” and “Ma’am” as the anonymous appellation. No more. No less.

    2) Among friends it’s another story. If you are genial with SOB, Slut, Bastard, whatever let the repartee rip. Keep it amiable and don’t go putting on airs yourself, unless they are self mocking.

    3) While we’re at it, throw in some self-mockery on general principles. I’m not pushing humility, but I am pushing good humor about foibles. Humble people have too great a tendency to want to humble others.

    4) Status – Let it flow from achievement, not position (see #1). Mark other people’s achievements as much as your own. When two or more people accomplish something, the whole is greater that the accomplishments of one and the world is that much better for it. (Note: This is where “greed is good.”.)

    5) If someone gives you their time, thank them for it and acting a spirit of appreciation

    6) Avoid the following situations wherever possible: win/lose, “It’s not enough that I be rich. Everyone else must be poor.”, “People I hate have no rights.”, “No one should ever offend me because I am too glorious/too vulnerable.”

    Well, this is a start. It’s a way to live that is remarkably profitable as well as decent to the rest of the world. Positive feedback loops run rings around negative feedback loops, because they attract more people.

  13. […] not sure exactly when I’ll get to it, but I do have some thoughts on some things you said in this post, […]

  14. […] – there is a lot in this post at Renegade Evolution’s blog that provoked reactions in me.  Of the “I would like to […]

  15. Xena says:

    I was trying to relax with the folk for a change, get away from the overeducated dickwads I go to school with and chat with some people who are more like me. But Lord Sod really needs his cockney tweaked.

    So sorry for pulling the smart card, but this guy desperately needs an education on feminist schools of thought. Btw, Sodit, your comments on Marx are getting there. Not brilliant yet, but I can tell you’ve at least invested some study time. That’s refreshing after all the Fox News Obamacare rhetoric of the last few years. Keep up the good work. And I do understand that mainstream feminism in the UK (at least the stuff I read about on newsblogs) is Fawcett Society/radfem/save-the-poor-trafficked-immigrant-sex-slaves type stuff. Our gvt’s less hung up on free wheeling libertarian ideals too. But there are still class, colour and gender problems. Gay marriages are legal here, and gays still get bashed. So do trans men and women. There is always more work to be done. I chat with some British feminists who are much more liberal than the ones to whom you’ve been comparing us. There are good feminists in the UK, too.

    So, here’s your education, in a nutshell. Feminism can be divided into first, second and third wave. Some say there’s a fourth wave that started in the 90’s, while others call the fourth wave an outgrowth of colonial feminism. There are also a few key areas of focus, like radfem, which we’ve already discussed, liberal feminism, and what I’ve heard defined as social feminism. There are other sub-types, but I never quite grasped what they were on about. I’m more interested in law, anthro and poli-sci than I am in women’s fiction. (I think the minutiae that I’ve heard feminists bicker about has more to do with writing than with trying to change the REAL world, so I’ll let the English majors educate you about the tedious crap.)

    First Wave began in the late eighteenth century with Mary Wollstonecraft. She and her activists were concerned with women’s rights to basic human dignities like literacy, bodily autonomy and the vote. Women at that time were slaves, chattel. They were believed to be incapable of human thought. Between the late 19th and the mid 20th century they secured voting rights for those of us in Western Europe, Scandinavia, the UK, the US, Canada and Australia. Small and sporadic gains toward equality in employment were also made during the first half of the 20th century.

    The feminism you so fondly refer to is second wave feminism, ushered in by Simone deBeauvoir and her contemporaries, through Gloria Steinem, the ERA and Roe vs. Wade and fading into third wave feminism in about 1980. And to varying degrees, the battle fought by proponents of second wave ideals is STILL not won. We don’t all have equal access to basic health and dental care, if we choose to kick an unfit spouse to the curb. We don’t all have the same access to the education that will get us the jobs that will adequately feed and house our kids, if a man’s paycheck is not in the cards. And in spite of what little radfem legislation I do agree with, (pertaining to descrimination and sexual harassment at work) women are still not treated as equal coworkers/employees. Except for childless twenty-somethings in entry level positions, women still don’t get equal pay for equal work. Affordable and adequate childcare? Maybe in some MRA pipe dream.

    Third wave feminism is harder to pin down. Initially, it was about the right to enjoy non-heteronormative and/or non-Xtian sexual expression without shame. In some ways, the move was much needed. The first anatomically correct diagram of the female reproductive system I’ve ever seen, ie, it included a clitoris, was in 2002. Gays fought for their rights, and in some places, won the legal battles. The personal battles are quite a different story. Unfortunately, you’re right about the corporations hijacking the third wave and turning it into a means of pornifying children. In the race to outfuck men, young women are forgetting the most important lesson of the third wave. They have a clitoris. They’re more than just jizz receptacles. They’re more than just mannequins to buy and sell The Man’s latest commodity fettish wear. Bisexuality is about the women engaged in the act, not the man they’re performing for.

    Fourth wave takes a critical look at rich white girl feminism and asks the question, What about globalization? Do we really have a right to complain when third world women are still slaving away in sweatshops to make those $10 booty shorts that get us the good lickie we think we’re fighting for? Who’s really being oppressed here? Can we do anything about it without adding to the wars, the Imperialist attitudes, the environmental devastation that put so many people in sweatshops in the first place? Is it even possible to free women who are enslaved by their patriarchal societies without forcing them into a different kind of slavery?

    Then there are the different approaches to dealing with these particular sets of problems. Use your imagination. Mix and match. Some approaches work better for a given set of problems than others. As we were saying, the rad fem stance is pretty extreme. It only works in extreme cases, like legislating against rape and more severe forms of sexual exploitation. Kitty MacKinnon’s sexual harassment legislation was brilliant. The stuff she and Dworkin coauthored to punish Swedish tricks (punters) was an insult. I’m not pleased with her attack on porn, either.

    Liberal feminists believe in the value of work. Women can work just as hard as men, and they’re proud to do so. Liberal feminists are also more likely to support sex workers’ rights. Work is work and fair is fair, dingit. They’re more interested in a level playing field than in trying to unman anybody. Unfortunately, they’re the most likely to badmouth a woman for taking a welfare check, regardless of the woman’s unseen health or other issues. To some liberal feminists, all seemingly able-bodied women are capable of working. I guess they believe that women who don’t work are setting us back.

    Colonial feminism looks at the places where sexism and other types of oppression, like the legacy of American slavery and colonization of the lands of First Nations people intersect to create lasting traumas brought on by the dominant class, and identity issues where ancestry and cultural heritage are stolen.

    Social feminism (I’m going to check this title when I get around to it. It came from a coffee chat, not a prof) says all women are oppressed in some way. Our duty to each other is to get along with each other and not bicker over petty ideological differences. Because I’m poor I have something in common with American descendants of slaves living in a US ghetto. (Actually, if I remember correctly, this feminist tradition has its roots in the abolitionist movement) Because I’m stigmatized enough to be shoved into a neighbourhood where there’s a lot of violence, I have something in common with the battered woman down the street. Because I’m from Metis ancestry, even though my eyes are blue and I could (to borrow a hateful but concise and convenient expression from American history) “pass” I have much in common with the natives where I live, even the ones who are homeless and addicted. Lesbians and trans women, we have something in common too. Society’s been shitty to all of us, so it’s our duty to stand with each other. United we stand, divided we fall. (this one’s my favourite.)

    Then there are a few types of anti-feminists who think they’re feminists. I believe evangelicals call what they do “fishy flirting”, using their sex appeal to draw converts into their church. No staunch xtian woman can call herself a feminist. Praying to that god is plain old Stockholm Syndrome. He never did it for me.

    Hope that helps, Lord Sod. I’ll have to comment about the post–why privileged 20-30 year olds are so much more misogynistic in the last few years–in the morning. I’m in a public computer lab, and they’re about to shut everything down for the night.
    ttfn

  16. Xena says:

    I’m back. I’ll try to be brief with this one.

    Lord Sod’s Oct 21 10:08 comment actually starts off with a decent criticism of Reaganomics/Thatcherism as the culprit for later brands of destructive consumerism. Dude should have quit while he was ahead, tho. Things get really weird after his 3rd paragraph.

    To that I’ll add 100% agreement to Anthony Kennerson’s comment (except I don’t call myself a left libertarian–Chomsky had some good ideas, but his model as a whole has enough flaws to leave it unworkable in practice). I also think that the rise in finger-pointing, pulpit pounding conservatism for sale is the direct result of GW’s Republicanism, not so much (as Lord Sod believes) Reagan and Thatcher’s neo-con milk snatching. Don’t forget, glastnost, and eventually perestroika, cost the neo-cons their biggest, baddest and most cooperative scapegoat. Don’t believe me? Try telling me the Islamists have ever made you feel even one one-hundredth of the fear you felt at the thought of being invaded by Brezhnev’s forces. If the Cold War didn’t leave you wide awake at 3am in a cold sweat at least once or twice, you are just too young to remember it.

    With the Berlin Wall down, Cold War industries shoved into obsolescence, and mass media going through rapid changes, the recession of the 90’s hit. The buzzwords were “job security is no more” “find your niche market” “be an original” and “dot com millionaire”. THIS thinking is directly responsible for the trend toward “gotcha” journalism. Anybody with enough sense to set up a paypal can cater to the public’s nastiest instincts, and call that journalism. And as the public rubbernecks more and more of this shite, the bar sinks lower and lower. I never thought the National Enquirer would get nominated for a Pulitzer for something as lame as the Rielle Hunter scandal. Is the public even aware of docudramas like Afghanada anymore?

    Add to that the knowledge that 9/11 was a setup. I watched the anniversary footage 2 months ago. Not like I did the first time around, in bits and pieces of horror. But over an hour of videos shot from different angles as the Towers went down, shown back to back. I wanted to believe that even people as corrupt and self serving as Bush&Cheney couldn’t be capable of such a horriffic act against their own people AND OURS!! But after watching the complete footage, I had no more doubts. 9/11 was NOT perpetrated by starving angry muslims. It was an inside job orchestrated by Americans, to try to bring back the fear and industry of The Cold War and the oil crisis of the ’70’s.

    And everybody knows it. All standards of human decency dissolved when that setup was allowed to happen and the people responsible weren’t even questioned.

    Was the Bush Administration any more corrupt than any previous war-mongering post WWII American government? Maybe not. But the key difference here is that in every other war, from Korea to the Balkans, whether I agree with the intervention or not (and with about 50% of them, I don’t) the US was responding to something that was ALREADY happening. There were also journalistic standards in place to sort news from hype. 9/11 was ENTIRELY FABRICATED to further the interests of Bush, Blackwater, McNerney, Boeing and the rest.

    And the public saw that. And instead of being horrified, they said, “Damn, I can get rich off that shit too.” With no controls on who says what and to whom, profit is the only measure of “good”. And what sells is sex and violence. To compete with more and more internet snuff porn peddlers, competitors get more and more creative with their sexual torture. And 14 year old gamers don’t even grasp how the laws of biology and human nature prevent moves like the “donkey punch”, the “strawberry shortcake” and the “angry dragon” from being anything but SUICIDAL in RL. I mean, teabagging as gamers use the expression? How many untrained people could even attempt that without getting killed? And it’s a common slang term!! Vile!!

    Then the overeducated GenY males, most of whom are Only Children of wealthy baby boomers surf the net and come across a shitpile of rants that sound a whole lot like mine. (No, I never said I came up with this stuff myself). But instead of saying, what a shitty world I live in, maybe I should use some of my money and talent to help, they go “I’m better than THOSE PEOPLE.The decline of critical thinking skills among the drooling hoardes of blogwatchers never affected ME. I have an accounting degree dontcha know. I think I’ll call up my buddies and see if we can get some WT #%$* to shake her titties at us. Maybe we can slip her a roofie and shit in her while we fuck her.”

    So I guess that’s about it. 5 main causes of the cold-blooded elitism/misogyny of the last decade.

    1)Internet panopticism at critical mass. Everybody’s watching everybody, so anything goes and justice itself is just another overmarketed bit of slacktivism with a paypal option.

    2)A generation of Only Children (males) raised by ridiculously wealthy parents who gave them whatever THE FUCK they wanted and told them they were more “special” than everybody else.

    3)American/western exceptionalism enacted in the most gruesome and hypocritical stunt in over 100 years, by public figures who are supposed to be good role models.

    4)Excessive visibility of the dangerous hypocrisy at work in the church.

    5)A decline in GenY’s ability to differentiate between fiction and real life, and between ethical/socially acceptable behaviour and gamer rape fantasies or soap opera stereotypes that are marketed as “Reality tv”. Their RL communication skills are also deteriorating. These kids would rather text than speak. BAD for building relationships with either gender.

    To put it simply, GenY’s worldview has no boundaries, no structure, no authority that can be trusted, and no consequences for anything but poverty. This is the lens through which they watch and attempt to live their internet, MTV and ‘Reality’ tv stereotypes. Young men are the “stars” of the “ME show” and women are nothing more than targets/trophies in this game/game show where the only purpose is to accumulate dollars and points. Personally, I’m wondering if they’ll outgrow it and do something useful with their middle years, or if they’ll see their fantasy world through to its inevitable dystopian anti-climax. Dialectical materialism can only cycle and recycle itself for so long. And then what?

    We really need some new cultural meta-narratives, already.

  17. Xena says:

    So much for brief. Hope I didn’t bore anybody with all of that.

  18. First, a response to Lord Sodit: Me thinks that you are simply projecting your personal definitions of feminism onto others. There are so many diffuse and different schools and classes of feminism around that it’s pretty much impossible to reduce them all to one particular ideology, other than supporting equality of the sexes/genders. Yeah, there are plenty of “radical feminists” (though I tend to call them more “cultural feminists” myself as to distinguish their distinct ideology from that of more classically radical feminist), but they hardly represent the majority viewpoint.

    Also..it is kind of pretentious for any man to think that he can define what is feminism and what isn’t, since feminism is by definition a movement for the liberation of women. That’s no different than Robert Jensen shilling antiporn feminism as THE feminism, or the MRA’s attacking “liberal feminism” as the great and evil Satan.

    And for Xena: I appreciate the props, though I’m much more of a social/sexual libertarian than I am a classical one. I used to be a huge fan of Chomsky, but he went all in on antiporn feminism, and plus he offers no practical alternatives for regular people to seize power and obtain equality and justive. Any genuine Left must be popular and willing to take on the diversity of the mass public, not lecture them on their failures and fallbacks.

    Anthony

    • Xena says:

      Yes, Anthony, that’s exactly the problem with radical leftist political models. Once whatever authority and power structures are dismantled, there’s still the problem of replacing them with workable leadership and resource distribution models that won’t do more harm than the system under critique as one that requires revision. So they have a little commune experiment that falls completely flat, and only manage to continue their success as a ‘movement’ by criticizing the status quo, without offering alternatives.

      I’m fine with slow, gradual left of center type change, where change is required.

      Now dissolving power relations and gender norms in the bedroom is more than fine by me. Go ye forth! Just don’t forget to bag your willie 😉

  19. Xena says:

    Almost forgot, Ren. You don’t sound hypocritical. Women who say they love a guy and then take his condo are hypocrites. Women who whine about how awful porn is so they can soak the public for donations are hypocrites. Men who rant about whores and then rape sex workers are hypocrites. You’re doing no bullshit business that doesn’t hurt anybody while you rant about the assholes that keep women OUT OF so-called ‘honest work’. That’s the LEAST hypocritical argument I’ve heard on the topic in months.

    YOU are NOT the hypocrite, here. Guys who expect women to do ‘honest work’ while they set up their churches and their businesses and THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD like Stephen King’s game show The Running Man are the hypocrites.

  20. Lord Sodit says:

    I don’t understand all this crap that makes me appear against Ren when I’m supportnig her against feminist belief in women’s inferiority.

    It’s like this – 1917 Russia, you were fighting for the Tsar because you never thought about yourself. Then came the Communist Ideal of all working together in one great Happy Family looking after each other. Wouldn’t we all like that kind of a ‘family’ world?

    So they had their Revolution and it wasn’t long before they got another Autocrat, but he could say it wasn’t by birth, The Revolution put Stalin in power. Well – ‘sort of’. Nobody chose that shit, they were just used to shit, and His Nibs knew how to pervert real ideals to fit what was familiar and what put him in charge.

    SO I don’t really get Ren’s objection to my objections to ‘feminists’ because I have never met any woman in my life who’d call herself by that word any more than a man would call himself ‘Male chauvinist’. Women regard it as an insult implying they feel too inferior to men to relate to them, and regard traditional ideas of masculinity (close to far-right post-capitalism) as the only way to live.

    Wiccans and pagans think otherwise.

    • Xena says:

      Sodit, we’re not criticizing the overall gyst of (around half of) your ideas so much as we’re saying your definitions need some fine-tuning. Anybody can wash his hands or bake a cake and say he’s just performed a chemistry experiment, just as anybody who’s kept a journal can call herself a writer, or anyone who’s carried a sign at a pro-choice rally can call herself a feminist. But Chemistry, English lit and Feminism are also academic disciplines that people work at for years to master. If you want to criticize the work of anybody in any of these disciplines, you had BLEEDIN’ WELL better know what you’re talking about.

      The feminists that piss Ren off are a small group from a particular school of thought, and they don’t come anywhere near representing the whole of feminism. Nor does the tiny group of women you know, that stand for equality but would never call themselves feminists. Literally millions of women, possibly tens or even hundreds of millions, call themselves feminists and know what it means to do so.

      Please read my comment from yesterday, 8:30 a.m.

      As far as your comparison to Marxism in theory and Stalinism in practice, you might enjoy Naomi Klein’s critique of The New Left. She discusses how ideas like environmentalism, feminism and the like get hijacked by the corporate machine and sold back to us as empty commodities with inflated price tags that accomplish the exact opposite of what proponents originally intended.

      I have a feeling I’m going to roflmao at the answer, so I have to ask. What exactly are you saying about wiccans and pagans?

    • Ren says:

      Sodit, my people are russian, from that era…hell, If the Others had not pissed me off so much, I’d call mysf a feminist.

  21. Lord Sodit says:

    Xena – divide and rule. The yanks did it to keep impoverished blacks & whites fighting so they would not team up against their controllers until this day.

    Feminism is the same hatred against ‘the other’ to prevent unity against The Boss. Feminism today is everything prudish and telling women that to meet men as sexual equals was to make themselves ‘inferior’ that “Women’s Liberation” when I was a teenager tried to ‘liberate’ women (and men) from.

    Words mean nothing. We have a society where women have always been freer than men and exploited men. We came from about 1970 to reduce women to equality with men and much more important, to get men to value all the ‘humane’ things that women had, as equal.

    That threatened social values. So what happened? They took the same words to mean the opposite of their original intention, just like Stalin,. just like Blair invented ‘nu-labour=not-labour’.

    Sure, change is necessary, but there is a difference between development and contradiction.

    Just ask how may women today call themselves ‘feminist’. The only ones who do are terrified of their fantasy of men, incapable of relating to men as equals, pretending to ‘demand’ from some male superior ‘patriarchy’ of their imagination, what women have been taking for granted fo 40 years and men trying to liberate themselves from that ‘feminist restraint’ of being the ‘rapist dominators’ that feminists imagine because that is what they want to be.

    Why even talk about Feminist filth any more than the BNP or in the USA the KKK? They are all identical bigots that no normal person wants anything to do with. If feminist fear of sex with men as equals made any sense we would not exist. The sexes are [approximately] equal, though women still retain smoe privilege over men.

    Feminists tell women they are inferior unless they conform to machismo that men have been trying to liberate themselves for 40 years, but feminist filth insist on opposing sexual equality with their sexist stereotyping and envy of the rapists they demand all men be. We have near equality of the sexes except that women refuse to accept men as equals – as they traditionally always have – feminism the reaction against equality ordering women to feel ‘inferior’ if they feel for men as they feel it their ‘right’ for men tp feel for them.

    No heterosexual liberal woman today admits to being a ‘feminist’. It means the same as ‘racist’. For most teenagers, ‘Feminist’ means ‘traditional sexist repression’ that it is good that they are liberating themselves from. Ren herself shows the misogynist filth that ‘feminism’ stands for. When they are not whining how inferior women are because men want more than sex with them, they are wailing how inferior women are because men only want sex with them. The only thing that matters to a feminist is that women are inferior to their fantasy of men.

    When did you ever meet a sane woman in real life who calle herself ‘feminist’? I never have. But I’ve met plenty – most – whose reaction to feminists is “I have all that they whine about and so did my mother, what’s their problem?” – “I don’t want equality withj men – I’d lose too much”

    • Xena says:

      Wish I hadn’t still been typing when this comment went up. I would not have even wasted my time. That is some FUCKED UP anti-feminist rhetoric. No point in trying to educate you. You’ve been brainwashed, Lord Sod.

  22. Lord Sodit says:

    Ren herself shows the misogynist filth that ‘feminism’ stands for.

    Woops! Some Feminist opponent of sexual equality and liberation is sure to say that I a pointing to Ren as in herself exemplifying feminist misogyny, when I meant that she stands up for “Women’s Liberation” as a ‘normal’ woman against the feminist reaction against equality of the sexes.

    She stands for every woman who blinked her eyelids and thought “What? fuck off!”when convention and now feminism command her to feel inferior to men. On this side of the Atlantic, we still have the the creeps, but we have different values too that still value shacking up together ahead of money and status.

    • Ahhh, Lord Solit…obviously your reading comprehension is a bit lacking.

      Didn’t Ren just say that she didn’t see all of feminism as an enemy? That feminism is still pretty relevant as a movement for equality for women??

      Dude…..you’re just becoming an MRA shill right about now. You might want to quit while you are falling behind.

      Anthony

  23. Oh, HELL TO THE NO.

    I may not like the antiporn radfems, but Lord Sodit, your crap is just a bit too much.

    “Feminist filth”?!?!? Reallly?? I mean, I guess that you think that a woman earning 70-80 cents fpr every comparable dollar that a man makes is more than equal, then…right?? That it’s OK for women like Ren to be independent only as long as she slams your favored enemy as “filth”?? I guess that Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter are liberated women, too, then…right??

    Oh…and you do know that both the BNP and the KKK are as rabidly “antifeminist” as you are, and use the exact same rhetoric to decry women like Ren…do you??

    I guess that it’s not jost Tea Partiers who have their delusions.

    Anthony

  24. Lisa KS says:

    Greatest. Post. Evar. Missed. You!

  25. Lisa KS says:

    …omg, who is this Lord Sodit dude? lol!

  26. Beste says:

    It seems that some of you are only ever concerned when feminists are attacking your precious porn & sex worker rights. Has it ever occurred to you that these issues aren’t the only things that feminists lie & distort the truth on?

    Feminists have been repeating the same mantra (that woman earning 70-80 cents fpr every comparable dollar) for the last forty years. Are we really supposed to believe that thing’s haven’t changed since then? Is there some kind of conspiracy by men against women that I just don’t know about?

    • Oh..and you’re only just concerned when you see an opportunity to bash feminists in general to soothe your own personal feefees, right. Beste???

      That 70 – 80 cents difference isn’t a myth..it’s the truth, and though some progress has been made to equalize some occupations, there is still a great deal of gender discrimination that exists against women in general.

      Feminism is far more diverse and far more justified in this world than some MRA’s would love it to be. Don’t like it?? Too freakin’ bad.

      Just because I happen to oppose certain radfems doesn’t deligitimize the whole of feminism across the board.

      Anthony

    • Ren says:

      dude, I will bust on anyone who attacks my precious porn. But this post was not AT ALL about feminists now, was it?

      Surely even you see something wrong with the media and culture messages put out there for young men today? If not for the treatment of women aspect, how about for metrosexuality and vanity, glorification of violence and drug use, seeing ALL other humans as disposible….something? SURELY there is more going on in that brain of yours than feminists-bad?

      • Beste says:

        Ren,

        Censorship is fairly heavy handed in Australia.. For example, I can’t even legally own any of the films Ernest Green makes. So I get a little concerned when anyone argues that mainstream media is creating generation of fuckwits. To me, that comes across off as more “what about the children” moral panic.

        But That doesn’t mean I don’t ask myself why I enjoy playing certain violent videogames like Gears of War & Call of Duty.

        • Ren says:

          lo, the answer there is they are both great games! GoW is fav of mine!

          The new advert for the new call of duty black ops game here in the states is BRILLIANT. All these normal looking people (chef, office assisant, lawyer- mennd women) in a combat situation with personalized weapons “proud noob” is one of them, fighting and doing tactics..the slogan “We all have some soldier in us”

          • Beste says:

            Yeah, the Black Ops ad is pretty awesome! I only wish it was a true reflection of what most CoD online players are like. Still way too many annoying teenage brats playing that game..

            Are you are looking forward to Gears of War 3?

  27. Rare fossil remains of the southern elephant found in the Stavropol regionAt the Iraqi border appeared Turkish helicoptersNew image of Lukashenka

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