Aiding and Abetting

Posted: October 20, 2010 in Kink/BDSM

So, I was guarding the homested last eve when this, well, dude I know showed up and, well…there were some law issues, and, well…

Dude I so had some of you going there for a second, didn’t I?  Hahahha.  Okay, no, seriously, I have not lent any (knowing) assistance to any (known) felons or fugatives lately.  That I know of.


I promise.


HOWEVER…since I have come back with some of my guts from that horrible desert in Nevada, I have been out and about in blog land, even writing here a bit (Gee Ren, what are you trying to do, start a class war?), and today I found myself over at “Chicks Dig Me.”  Now, do hear this- I like Joan, and I like reading her blog, and anyone who finds that shocking or has issue with me for it is kindly invited to kiss this (woo, pink and sparkly)!  And she has an entry up regarding kink, feminism, and well, musings from her own head…which hey, head musings are way more interesting to me than academic theories and all that crap any day.

So yeah, JK got the noodle squirming a bit.  When it comes to the sex/porn/bdsm debates, I think everyone knows where I stand, with a flag planted, and possibly armed.  Yet even considering that, I do not think it is a bad thing for folk who are into whatever (and I mean whatever, from kink to…those stupid Twilight Movies) to think about why or how they ended up there and what it might mean or say about them.  No, I am well beyond caring about looking at much of anything through a feminist lense or any of that shit…but examination FOR oneself and consideration of the implications BY oneself?  I don’t think that’s a bad thing….

Nor do I think whatever one comes up with will always makes sense, has to make sense, or thusly demands a change.

So yeah, kink.  Was thinking about that.  And a question I’ve heard a lot is, well, as a kinky gal, who while not all that BDSM-y in a traditional sense, is pretty out there, how does what I do, either dishing it out or taking it, affect others…  and 99% of the time, my answer is “I fail to give a fuck”  (yes, I am that charming)…but the thing is, the real answer is… “I don’t know”.  Do my ,er, sadistic tendancies give me traits in common with predators?  Hell yes.  They do.  The difference is- oh, I am not out there actually raping people.  Do my, er, submissive tendancies portray women as submissive things who like to be used and dominated?  LOL  um, if you only heard the demands and profanity that came forth from me or saw the look on my face when “taking it”…well…that would no longer be a concern.  “Can” all sorts of things be, or be implicated, or be blamed, for the bad behavior of others?  Of course they “can”…

But I do not know, nor have I ever, thought that Kinky People, unless they’ve actually DONE it, can be accused of Aiding and Abetting predators or creating the victims of those predators.  The guilt there forever and always falls on those who have truly done the wrong.

  1. Lord Sodit says:

    Aiding & Abetting? Always remember that some of the worst murderous and most otherwise perverted crimes have been by nutters waving bible. God told them to smite the Evil Ones. John Lennon wasn’t responsible for what Charlie Manson made of ‘Helter Skelter’. Unless you’re pushing some social Darwinist fascistic line of everybody do what they want to whom they want if they can get away with it then their justification is their business not yours.

    Hell, even the Marquis de Sade pushed that line only in the context of brothels where sure, you can do what you don’t leave anybody permanently crippled or dead (and I’m not even sure about that) and your payment is being there for somebody else.

    The only questionable issue doesn’t apply only to porn; it’s when something is constantly presented as normal life that isn’t. So every woman alone is just waiting for a chance stranger to fuck her rigid even when she can’t bring herself to admit it – but then every argument ends in a fight and every robbery is armed. That’s why we put an age limit on stuff, in the hope that when they’re old enough to see it they’re mature enough to know fact from fiction.

  2. Ren says:

    Er, a point of order here…no one in brothel should be considered Okay for Anything other than crippling or death simply because they’ve been paid. It happens, it has happened throughout history- but yeah… NOT OKAY.

    And the problems folk have determining fantasy from reality- wow, not just a porn issue…and widespread wrt to media far more pervasive than porn.

  3. Lord Sodit says:

    Any idea dreamt up be the Marquis de Sade needs to be kept at arms’ length! I can sort of see where he was coming from and it wasn’t because they’d been paid – it is strict anarchism, OK do what you like and the way you pay for it is to be there for what somebody else wants to do. sort of instant karma.

    That was probably a big improvement on French brothels of 200+ years ago – at least the only people there would have gone there for their own thrills first, more a sex-exchange than a brothel. He just assumed that everybody was as kinky as he was. Likely most of the Aristos were.

    Confusing fact with fantasy is always said about porn and violence (and repeatedly disproven) but there’s plenty else that it can apply to in subtle little ways that gets poo-poohed out of discussion and a lot of that does apply to kids who really don’t have the experience to know better. It’s ‘only fun’ for kids to watch James Bond joking about casual murder but a glimpse of pubic hair is going to turn them into raving perverts!

  4. sheniver says:

    If I get the question I think everyone at one time assists in many things even if they don’t realize they are doing it. As the “wingman” often I will say I do encourage others to do things they may not have done otherwise and othertimes talk people out of things they may have done otherwise.

    Is this the question or did I miss it?

  5. 1) Okay, Ren, I’m pretty sure you know my opinion of Joan’s writing, and yep, had a peek over there when you linked, because, well, people can change, or you can change your opinion of them over time… and I still find it suffocatingly whiny and rather a choking atmosphere…

    but, you know what?

    1a) The fact that I find the opinions she expresses on her blog repugnant enough to give me hives does not mean I would never get along with her if we bumped into one another at a gaming night or in the grocery store or wherever. So I have no idea if I dislike her or not, honestly. I just know I would really rather drink bleach than read another round of “But you said you think we’re oppressed!”

    But people are very much more than their blogs, for one, and for two, any time we blog we’re putting on a persona. Some people are consciously Lady Gaga-extreme about that and will say straight up “you don’t know me,” and other people are tryin’ hard to keep it honest, but ALL OF US are revealing only pieces, so most of the time, unless it’s a very visceral “oh god you’re FUCKING CREEPY” red-flag gut feeling thing? We don’t fucking know anyway.

    1b) The fact that I would rather drink bleach than do X says something about me, and NOTHING about people who do X. Or about whether I’d be friends with people who do X (as long as they don’t try to convince me X is super great.)

    So… rock on. I don’t care at all if you’re friends with people whose blogs make me feel weird. I’m me. You’re you. Done deal.

    2) In regards to the real answer being “I don’t know,” this is exactly why I’m too tired to blog on Let Them Eat… any more. Because the thing is? I don’t know, and I think a lot of people don’t know why they are the way they are either. And, well, I was fighting a war against people who think that they know, and that WE know, and that if we say we don’t know we’re lying, either to other people or to ourselves.

    And honestly? Maybe it was just because certain fringey people were really noisy, or maybe it’s just because I’m too distracted with things like a real job, a girlfriend I love in a way I’ve never loved anyone, fandoms that keep me busy talking and writing, etc. to notice it’s all just the same as it was, but…

    …it really seems to me that I and others did it, that somewhere along the line we pretty much won that war. There are folks who’ll never budge, but then, there are folks who want to fight old wars over and over every time. I don’t feel like I need to defend myself. I feel like I love my girl and if someone wants to say or think I don’t (because making generalizations is about saying that, no matter how hard people protest it isn’t), or think that okay maybe I love her but I’m emotionally poisoned or emotionally poisoning us, big fucking deal, you’re not in my bedroom and I not only refuse you access to my personal life, I refuse you space in my head, too. We won, you lost, go write wistful poetry in your corner or whatever the fuck because you know what?

    It’s Over.

    So yeah, no shock or judgment here from me. Just don’t ask me to go over there with ya. 😉

    And now I must show the pink AK-47 pic to my wonderfully fierce femme girl, BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE HER LIFE.

    • Ren says:

      the Hello Kitty AK KICKS FUCKING ASS, Amen.

      Heh, you could always take up the class war cause with me…

      …or. hang with the gf, do fandom, so on…lord knows I drop off the face of the earth to, oh, write, fairly often.

      And Hey, that OH GOD FUCKING CREEPY flag…I think I set a record for raising that one LOL.

    • Clarisse says:

      😀 I wouldn’t say it’s over, but it’s a hell of a lot better, I think, because of you and others. You’ve got something to be proud of, in my obviously-biased opinion, even as you hang up your SM-blogging hat.

  6. joankelly6000 says:

    Thanks for your comments at my place and for this post, Ren. I had a laugh when I checked my site stats and realized this post here was the reason I was suddenly getting 250 hits on my usually-75-hits-a-day-tops blog. Before I realized that was why, I had a second of irrational “what the fuck are YOU looking at, internet?” feelings, ha. Anyway, thanks for your thoughtfulness on this topic.

    You (and Polly as well) made me think about other things in this too. And I left unspoken the part about how, whatever I’m involuntarily OR happily turned on by, whatever darkness I may see in there sometimes and however it may confound or unnerve or repel me, I don’t participate in actual non-consensual violence of any kind. I don’t have the urge to. That is a difference, perhaps the only difference, I don’t know, between me and predators who are into raping and torturing women.

    It’s a big difference. What I am trying to puzzle out for myself, and if that fails, figure a way to peace with it, is the mind fuck of how can I be like you (the predator “you”, not you Ren) and not-like you at all (non predatory myself)? What is the meaning of connectedness, when that is the substance of the connection?

    I don’t know why I care about those questions or have them in the first place. I don’t know that anything would change one way or another if I ever figured it out for myself or heard from someone else whose conclusions made sense to me.

    And if that’s you, Trinity (I’m not familiar with this screen name above but it sounds like you from the sm feminist reference) – of course you would like me if we met in person, and I would like you. Even if we didn’t like each other in the “really click and want to hang out more” sense, we’d still get along, genuinely, because of who you are and because of how I am.

    And I always know, either from the start or I figure it out later, just what it is that is the root of the fuck-you feelings between me and anyone else I’ve had them with online. With you, I honestly don’t know what is at the root of why each of our writing is just not something the other can stand to rest her eyeballs on (whereas I can tolerate and even enjoy/appreciate reading a near-infinite amount of other things I don’t agree with). I don’t think meeting in person and liking each other would change that either, I think it’d still be like “I can’t fucking stand this voice online.” Not that we’re planning a summit, just saying.

    Fortunately, it takes zero effort to not-read each other and leave it at that.

    • Ren says:


      Eh, I get the whole violence thing…I mean, as in a person who has violent urges and has, well, thrown a punch or two at someone who has not wanted or consented to it- I even beleive there IS a time and place for violence…but…well, I’m hostile and I know it, and thus I work that aggression out in other ways. Do I accept it for what it is, and what other folk have those same sorts of things going on? Yep. But I’m not them- and that is enough for me.

  7. rootietoot says:

    Consensual consensual…in the privacy of wherever private…you know how I am with all that. Not my thing, violence and smacking around and foul mouths, -I’m pretty much the hearts-and-roses type, but I never have quite understood how 2 (or several) people doing their own thing automatically causes someone who’s unhinged to do unhinged things to people. I don’t want to see it (so don’t watch porn), but can’t exactly pound my Bible and and point fingers if the people involved don’t use the Bible as their standard of behavior in the first place. y’know? (off to fluff the pillows and put on the Mark Isham cd)

  8. joankelly6000 says:

    Ah, see I understand violence too. But it sounds like what you’re talking about is “I want to fucking punch or otherwise hurt someone who is pissing me off or has hurt me.” And that is definitely something I have felt and feel more than rarely. I haven’t thrown any punches because I love not having a broken nose, not because I’m a violent-urge-free person – I would get my ass kicked in a fight with anyone over the age of 8. Anyway, that’s a different phenomenon than having that urge towards someone who is minding her own business, and acting on that urge over her objections.

    It’s that latter thing – rapist/serial killer is turned on by the idea of seeing or causing pain to a woman in sex-based (both sex-as-an-action and sex-as-in-her-female-ness) ways without their consent; in some ways I am turned on by seeing women in sexual contexts receive pain, and with males I am sometimes turned on by being the one to cause it, with the pretense of lack-of-consent sometimes turning me on. Rapist/serial killer acts on those feelings, I contain my experiences with them to consensual BDSM experiences/porn.

    Is it just conscience/lack of one? If so, then I start to think about what Polly was saying too – can I be sure that my OWN conscience, let alone anyone else’s, is immune to manipulation? Do I need to just not-worry about how come I’m not the rapist/serial killer, and not-worry about if there are circumstances that could ever weaken that reality? I would like to not-worry about it. But it does make me think of males, specifically, who are into BDSM (and I feel this way about similar women but they are simply fewer in number), and what pressures and/or supports influence what they feel comfortable doing.

    Anyway, not to turn this into an episode of Care Bears, but I forgot to say in my first comment that I like you too! 🙂 I figured it went without saying, but I woke up sentimental and prone to stating the obvious.

    • Ren says:

      Heh, as one who has completely wracked my brain on that whole “Humm, how did I not end up doing 25 to life for something horrible?” thing…. I can offer some theories…

      1: Fear of Prison- I rather like ‘life on the outside’
      2: As dark as my head can run sometimes, I have a personal objection towards aggressive actions towards anyone or anything that has zero chance of defending itself.

      WRT Polly’s statement on manipulation…you know, as a hostile person who writes some extremely violent- sometimes sexually violent- fiction, I think I have ‘been inspired’ far more by mainstream movies and tv than porn- ever. I mean, I’ve never seen a graphic depiction of someone being burned, stabbbed, dismembered, so on in porn…but I have watched “the Sopranos”…. and as far as truly disturbing rape scenes and things of that nature- Alll day, every day, on numerous TV stations we have L&O: SVU, CSI, Criminal Minds, Bones, so on. People of the mind to rape, torture and kill other people, if they need inspiration- can and will find it EVERYWHERE.

  9. Lord Sodit says:

    Maybe the essence is the feedback that’s being almost glossed over. Not everybody in a Martial Arts school wants to use it, not every boxer is Mike Tyson. That’s consensual violence, feedback is both feeling good about a workout. Feedback from non-consensual violence is that you hate and want to hurt the bastard and get your frustration/anger out.

    So sex – the nearest I’ve seen to a sensual bondage porn is women trying not to wet themselves. Just about everything else emphasizes power over the ‘victim’s’ sensation. At the most it’s pushing beyond normal limits of endurance (like Hogtied) and I have my doubts about if any woman really can prevent an orgasm until allowed! As for men teased that way – too much “Worship your mistress, worm” crap!

    What’s going on there? She volunteered. If she was kidnapped she’d be too scared or mad to feel anything. If she was free when too much is too much she’d be able to move and relieve it or she’d be concentrating on trying not to and take her mind off sensation. Wet desperation is a variant – the thrill comes more from what she might be feeling than what some feminists would make of women humiliated – there’s no turn-on about some drunken teen throwing up pissing herself.

    Any mutual sex, it’s the feedback, the other’s excitement that makes it and you end up bouncing it off each other like a couple of facing mirrors. Otherwise it’s scratching an itch. Personally screwing a ‘living doll’ with no reactions would turn me off. At the worst I might want to hurt her just to get some bloody reaction!

    So there lies the difference. I’ve belong to SM groups and once somebody (who did sound pretty creepy) put up a picture of dead women tortured in Indonesia. Howls of protest and banned: that was real, everybody knew theirs was play, the unspoken secret that BOTH sides enjoyed it.

    So how about the real thing? Maybe there is a genuine hatred of women – gods know we have enough history of teaching kids to have a low opinion of the other sex! If you’re going to hurt and humiliate somebody to boost your twisted ego, sex can be all part and excitement is all excitement. It’s a historical fact that ancient Roman prostitutes did their best business around gladiators and men complained of women all over them while they were trying to watch the fight (not much change there!). Sometimes high passion and a fight can be hard to tell apart – people do scream and hit out with passion too, it’s not a Victorian “Do you feel alright now dear?”

    Then there’s more complicated. If you convince yourself that she is ‘gagging for it’ but playing coy and you do not get that feedback to show she is, you feel a prick and blame her. Everything is one big disappointment but you’ve shot your load and there’s nothing you can do about it. Blame the bitch for ‘enticing’ you. She’s made a fool you, ‘sapped your virility'(!) and there she is, might as well have been putting a tampon in as far as sexual effects go. There’d have to be some violence to rape her in the first place, so he is already in a heightened violent state.

    So make the difference feedback. Minds are complicated, they can work at several levels – ‘suspension of disbelief’. We can watch torture and death on film but how many want to watch terrorist videos of the real thing for fun? How many of our ancestors took the kids to watch a good hanging and worse?

    SM ‘players’ know they are playing. There’s feedback that the ‘victim’ is really enjoying more sensation than would otherwise be possible, almost fighting their own body – not necessarily painful, it could be just off orgasm for longer than they’d be able to relieve free or knowing there’s a thrill in watching them squirm not to mess their pants and then squirm more because the ‘pants’ are too tight to let them easily, and all the sensations that come with that. But on both sides there is a known feedback of mutual pleasure. In the real thing that is lacking. There’s your difference.

  10. Ren, have a quick look at this Lady’s site I know her personally and I don’t think I’m into her kind of psychological domination, as I guess it, but so what? – I see it more like ‘traditional’ men grovelling after woman’s acceptance – but I could be wrong too.

    You seem a fair bit in common even if she has a Brooklin Jewish accent to floor Woody Allen! You might have a lot to contribute to her blog and vice -versa – at least would make a change from you facing ‘feminists’ telling you that to meet men as equals makes you their ‘inferior slag’.

    I reckon hte pair of you get on fine – and that includes some vicious sparks!

  11. Lord Sodit says:

    You’re Jewish? She is. But look, if sparks don’t fly, there’s not much light is there? All that stuff is seriously important to USA-ians. We have different gripes and different problems on this side. Also of course, her sexual quirks are not yours – and I think, not mine. I don’t mean t contribute, but to watch a very different world, how you’d say the same things maybe but in different words that make all the difference.

    You are mid-west, she is Brooklyn. That distance is different countries with their own history and language in a place as small as Europe – but it can go through to the USA as well, that you are not a ‘nation’, you are a union of ‘states’ and a Californian no more the same ‘American’ as a Swede is a Greek ‘European’ Still, there are ways Europeans and Americans are not Africans or Orientals in outlook, for all our local and group differences.

  12. Lord Sodit says:

    I am far too beholden to a Dutch brewer to give you a sane answer – but I might give an honest one!

    Oriental? Chinese, Japanese, Korean and so on. We use ‘Asian’ to mean Indo-Pak, the ones between ‘Middle East’ and China.

    What we (and often Americans) forget is that you are still a ‘Union’ not a homogeneous nation and we can be shouting ‘Americans’ down when that is one part that they oppose as much as we do, but we just don’t hear it.

    Fer fuck’s sake, you people often talk about ‘Europe’ like it was one place with different languages. We make the same mistake. ‘America’ is all MacDonalds and Creationists, like Oslo is Bucharest!

    Didn’t realise you had the Jewish background though. Even at its most trivial, I think that opens to ‘thinking’ where Christianity closes off. There are ‘fundamentalist Jews’ in Israel – but anywhere else that’s a near contradiction. All the same, bacon tastes good!

    • Ren says:

      Ummm bacon. I am not a very, er, good jew.

      And oddly enough, most Americans I know do not think all of Europe is “the same”. There are some serious cultural differences between a whole lot of countries in Europe for certain.

  13. Lord Sodit says:

    Most Europeans forget that half the continent is Russia!

  14. Ren says:

    Heh, I can only lauugh at that

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