Everyone has their own unique underworld…

Posted: April 13, 2010 in Assholes, Blogging, Humans, The Hardline According to Ren

A while back (ok, not too far back, but a bit back) ND put up a post about an annoying Facebook dude who caused her to hate Nietzsche even more…

Heheh, the name Nietzsche in a title, hell, I will read it no matter what it is.  It’s like a Pavlovian response and all…

Anyway, in the comment section, various discussions ensued, one of them- which suggested men are just hardwired to hate women blah blah blah was eye roll and sneer worthy, but there were others that were more interesting, like about men who like/prefer younger women (generally far younger than themselves) and Creepy Dudes in Various Scenes.  I read all that shit with serious interest and all…

Because I too have noticed this phenomena.  Once, back at the old place, I posted about a Creepy Older Goth Dude who was trying to Impress the Goth Chick who was, oh, like 20 years his Junior by being Gother Than Thou and ended up getting laid out on his ass by me for the effort.  But as an avid dweller of dark and creepy places where Goths and their much disdained low brow bastard cousins- The Industrial/Cyber Goths- tend to congregate….as well as a Gamer Girl….I can tell you…the phenomena of the Older Dude who is All About the Younger Women is a very real thing.

And sometimes, I think people have part of it wrong…The part they have wrong is that ALL (or most men) have deemed any woman over the age of 25 unfuckable and thus have no interest in these women because they are unfuckable.  I disagree with this because well…in both my club dwelling and gamer crews, there is not a woman who is, oh, under the age of 30…35-42 seems to be the more accurate age spread- and oddly enough, none of us relics seems to want for male attention- even when we don’t necessarily want it.  And half the time, the dudes showing the attention are…well…younger dudes.  It has, in fact, been my experience that women over 30…hell, 40 even…are not considered dead and unfuckable (or whatever else) by a great many men in the universe.  If that were true, well then, I, at the ripe old age of 38, would never have sex…right?  If that were the case, no female celebrity over the age of 30 would be considered “hot”.  Ahem: Angelina Jolie-34, Kate Beckinsale-36, Angie Harmon- 37, Pauley Perrette- 41, Halle Berry- 43  – all women often considered by the male of the species to be…hot.    Life is not “Logan’s Run” people, folk, even female ones, are not considered dead and useless once they are 30.

Nevertheless, there are those types of dudes out there, all over, in every scene, in every sub-culture, in every walk of life…the Older Dude who Only Wants the Younger Woman.  I have seen dudes get very defensive over this, calling on everything from Evo-Psych to the Young women are just more Hip excuse.  And sure enough, I have seen couples where there is a significant age difference that work…sometimes where the woman is 10 or so years older, but most often in the reverse…and I don’t knock these people for a second because you know- their relationships do seem to be happy and based on mutual respect and affection and all that other crap.

However…heh…I have also seen situations where none of those things are what it is about, and generally, these are cases where the man is the significantly older one.  And he is into younger women for some very specific reasons.   Often times these dudes have a wanna-be Svengali thing going on.  They want women who they can mold, shape, create, into what they want those women to be.  They like having the young, hot, fawning thing around to impress the other dudes with.  The like having these women around because well, they like fucking them and showing them off, but also because often, it bolsters their own position in whatever circle they run in, and often, these sweet young molded things won’t challenge them in any way because they are…simply put…naive.

For instance, I know a dude in the Goth Scene…and he is a Goth.  He is one of a few of the 40+ Goth Dudes that are out every night, making the rounds at every club, busy being Lord of the Dance or what the fuck ever after the business day is done.  He has a horribly annoying habit of flipping his hair…and most women over 30 know he is, often, an insufferable arrogant often drunk off his ass asshat.   He also goes through under 25 year old girl friends like most people change socks…has even been caught in drama where he has been, ahem, busted, dating (and by dating, I mean fucking) more than one at a time where the women thought it was an exclusive thing.  Aside from being Gother than Hell- this dude does not have many redeeming qualities at all.  None really.  And why is HE into younger women????

Ahem.  One- They put up with his shit.  Two- Banging the hottest young goth chick around- who all sorts of guys- from his elder Goth Round Table Crew to the Younger Goth dudes, to well, Dudes in general- find attractive makes him feel special and important and envied!  Three- a younger girl is more likely to be impressed by his utterly worthless in the real world club scene creds than an older woman-who oh, has lived a little- which also makes him feel good.  Four- He can control them.   Hell, a great many dudes like this are not even dating women who would be considered “hot” by the whole Goth Scene Standard…but they are young….and that, the being young and easily influenced part, seems to be more important than brains, humor, money, or even looks, to some of these dudes.  

That pretty much sums it up…and he seems to be pretty indicative of a great many of his ilk.   I myself often wonder what the hell a 40+ dude has to talk about with a 20 year old woman…hell, dude was outta highschool and out in the world  before she was even born…but I guess if you can just dictate and screw and be worshipped by the fawning young thing… conversation and common interests do not matter.  Especially if yer boys are jealous of you for it…

And I will even go out on a limb here:  I think this shit is really rather creepy.  Hell, I say that as one of the creepiest freaks on the planet.  Dating a chick who could be (or is, in some cases) the same age as children you may (or do) have is just…oogy.    There are exceptions, of course….but sometimes, the rules fucking fit for a reason.

  1. dead_Vladimir says:

    the rule i was always told was no younger than have your age +7;

    I tihnk yo hit the nail on the head here. It is a lot easier, and no one lynch me for this , to date significantly younger people, becuase well they are young, innocent, naive, and frankly dumb.
    A woman in her 30s has a whole different set of criteria than a 21 year old and is frnakly a lot more discrimnating. Younger woman agian are often seeing the bag of tricks for the first time and since it is new, are more easily misled by flash over substance.
    And a lot of older single men, they don’t want the work of an older woman. Either she wants a real relationship and is smart enough to know what constitutes one, or b) if she herself is just doing the same thing the older man is you either need to treat her as a respected equal which a lot of these creepy dudes don’t have in them to do, or worse actually offer something to compete with the 21 year old guys she is chasing (after all if she is interested only in rock hard abs, more likely to find that ona young guy than a 40 year old, etc)

    I have noticed though, more and more women seem to be doing this too these days

    • Ren says:

      That is true. But generally, I tend to think women are more up front about “this is just a sex thing” than dudes are.

      • dead_Vladimir says:

        Oh i agree, though I think that might be changing, I think in the past women were less accepting, perhaps because of societal conditioning to accept it is just a sex thing, the whole women are sluts but men are players dichotomy, which is changing I think.

        Part of the problem with older men and younger women is, a more experienced woman would know his actions say something different than his words. It is at its heart an exploitave thing

  2. rootietoot says:

    Terry works with a man who’s 50-ish and will only sleep with women 25 or younger. He hits the college bars to find them. I (and every other woman over 30) thinks he’s a class-A creepazoid. So,does he sleep with children because the older women won’t have him, or because he won’t have older women? Who knows.
    As for the older woman thing- there’s that whole cougar phenomen going on, which squicks out my boys, because their attitude is “dude! she could be my mom!”
    There’s always people out there who deviate from the expected norm (we call them ‘deviants’, right?) for whatever reason, whether it’s power or an ego trip or simply a matter of taste.
    Terry’s coworker-who knows. I think it’s because older women have sense enough to know he’s a complete jackass and want nothing to do with him.
    I know that I am tremendously grateful that I don’t have to participate in that hunt activity, as the sexual dance confuses me.

  3. Roy Kay says:

    Most people I meet anymore are on the net or at a play party. The range is from -37 to +7, so I suppose some of my experience falls into that area. Mostly I operate on the assumption that we are all the same age on the net.

    For those that are younger, my main attraction seems to 1) no drama and pretense, 2) being an irreverent smart ass; and 3) NO FUCKING DRAMA AND PRETENSE. A couple have had an older guy kink which I have only lately figured out what to do with.

    Based on what I’ve heard, it seems that a lot of 25-something guys are far creepier than I could hope to be and either won’t take “No.” for an answer; or, worse, won’t take “yes” for an answer unless they can redefine “Yes” into him having sort of control. As near as I can figure, this is the only reason I hold any interest at all.

    I suppose if the tactics of age 25 worked, there is no incentive to change them. So if you found that gaining control over someone worked at 25, you’ll be trying the same game at 35, 45, 55 and older. I just don’t understand how you can get any sense of the experience of someone, when they aren’t terribly autonomous. No inventiveness and no serendipity makes for a pretty dull sex and love life.

  4. Erik says:

    I love that you refer to women over the age of 25 as “older” and talk about your “ripe old age of 38.” As you might guess, I was born in the Early Cretaceous, but I actually prefer to date older saurians from the Mid-Late Jurassic. A cute little triceratops is all very well and might impress one’s buddies, but give me the life experience and character of a stegosaurus or pterodactyl every time.

  5. Eli says:

    Some of the commenters sound like they envy the younger women for the attention they get…

    Not to disagree with your point about creepy guys being creepy, but sometimes a younger woman is in some kind of drama with people of the same age and appreciates interacting with someone a little more “weathered”, and it can be a bit of a kick in its own way to be able to give someone helpful advice from one’s experience so they don’t have to make one’s own dumb mistakes all over – like a way of finding out what other mistakes you could have made if someone had told you what you know now. It doesn’t always have to be some sinister power game.

    Also, one of my best friends on LJ is at least 20 years my junior. I don’t think blanket statements about “nothing to talk about” are justified. It’s not like age changes boring into interesting, or stupid into smart.

    To be honest, I think generalizing from a few creepy old dudes to all differently-aged relationships would be a little ageist. If it’s true that young girls are naive, are they any less likely to be misled by a young player? Would they take any less shit from a young abusive creep? Is a younger dude any less likely to just want to get in her pants or use her to impress his buddies? If the girls are ignorant and inexperienced, are they really safer with guys that are just as ignorant and inexperienced? If we don’t automatically assume inherent abusiveness on the part of the elder partner, wouldn’t it usually be preferable if at least one party knows what they are doing?

  6. Ren says:

    “Some of the commenters sound like they envy the younger women for the attention they get… ”

    Heh, why did I know that would be coming…

    Humm ::glances around::: House, degree, to the gates of hell and back friends, car, size zero….and oh yeah, pretty much the attention of males whenever I want it…

    What would I be envying here again, exactly? College exam stress? Not really knowing how to handle my booze? College loan bullshit? Hummm…

    I am not talking about people who, even though are of very different ages, like each other and end up dating…zero problem with that. I am talking about MEN who EXCLUSIVELY date MUCH younger women. There is a difference.

    Hell, some of the commentors sound like they feel guilty for only dating younger women because they might be creepy dudes….

    • dead_Vladimir says:

      hey you said you wouldn’t out me!

    • Eli says:

      You didn’t generalise in your post, and you didn’t sound envious. I was referring to some commentors over at ND, which in turn reminded me of discussions elsewhere. It seems often to be taken as a given that a relationship with an age difference is always wrong and abusive. This doesn’t seem right to me, I think because of how that argument (not the one you’re making, but the one I’m reminded of) makes sex out to be completely different and special – like, nobody ever seems to say that one should never be friends with someone significantly older. As if friends never pull one over on you or take advantage of you or betray your trust or steal your money or play power dynamics. But no, somehow it seems people are assumed to be able to handle any power difference just fine – just so long as they don’t have s-e-x because that’s totally dangerous and scary, you know what I mean?

      I also have the impression there is -in general- a preoccupation with age difference to the exclusion of other differences that would be at least as relevant to power dynamics (education, career, previous relationships, disability,…), to the extent that I suspect a taboo of some kind is involved…

  7. rorshack says:

    Guilty as charged. My Fiance is 12 years my junior. I also, however, find those my age just as attractive. Creepy is as creepy does…exclusively seeking a large age difference is just one symptom of creepy.

    • Ren says:

      you and yer gal are together for a lot of reasons, thou, many which include things like similar interests and actual enjoyment of eachothers company…you know, real stuff!

  8. sneeky bunny says:

    All my comments over there are still in moderation, and we’ll see if they are too acerbic to make it through. I too have seen the Creepy Old Goth act in action, but I’ve seen that same behavior in much younger men. The creepiest boy at the club I go to just turned 26. He likes to do that rolling a sparkley ball around on his hand as bait. I think people like that are looking for vulnerability more than anything else and that often comes in a young package. Plus, you know, young people are pretty! Sometimes it might just be that.
    Me, I’m 47 and my primary partner is 15 years my junior. My ex husband was 11 years younger. Almost every person I’ve dated has been younger, and I have no idea why that is, or why the youngins keep hitting on me. But I’m not gonna complain about it. Because they’re pretty!

  9. Ernest Greene says:

    I’ve run into a lot of hostility lately around the age difference thing, which always makes me suspicious. Last week it was guys into BDSM who got trashed. This week it’s guys who like sports. Next week it’s guys who are into younger women who get trashed. Gee, let’s see how many different kinds of guys we can trash for how many different things. It’s like there’s some targeting commitees somewhere that decides who gets the saturation bombing run tonight. I think it’s pretty arbitrary much of the time. I’m sure that POV won’t sit well with those inclined to see me as “MRA-ish” but I lose little sleep over their opinions. Anyone who can’t figure out why that’s not applicable in my case doesn’t interest me much.

    Now, all that being said, I’m prepared to go a lot further than the accusations currently on the table.

    I’m wary of anyone who has a “type” to whom they’re attracted to the exculsion of all others. Doesn’t matter if the typing is based on age, race, class or physical appearance. It’s one thing to have a taste for this or that characterixtic in a person. It’s another thing to care more about that characteristic than about the person. I have some mild fetish for redheads, but I married a blonde because what’s under the hair is more important than the hair.

    This doesn’t just apply to physical types either. I’ve seen both men and women end up in bad relationships over and over with partners who were all similar in some significant and obvious way that everyone else could see but they couldn’t. I think there may be some sort of repition compulsion at work there, and the outcomes are predictably bad because the relationships are based on something other than the compatibility of the personalities involved.

    So the question in my mind is, are we dealing with sleazy, creepy, predatory guys in general (assuming for a moment that some other kind of guy might theoretically exist), or are we dealing with garden variety neurotics fixated on something unique to them as individuals?

    If so, this is an individual problem, not yet another social problem tiresomely described in the usual terms of gender politics.

    And anyway, the whole “creepy old guys who go for younger women because they’re easier to manipulate” thing doesn’t stand the test of real life very well. There are gullible people of all ages who can be manipulated and manipulators have a wide field from which to choose.

    I think a counter-charge of ageism could just as easily be fired back in the other direction on this one. There are plenty of younger people who are attracted to older people because they value experience. They could just as easily be dismiissed as shallow gold-diggers who know they can get over on some old dude with a few bucks by playing up the age difference to flatter his ego. Do they also deserve to be tarred with those who do have those motivations even if they themselves don’t?

    I really think this whole deal comes down to cases, and I don’t see why universals should be more applicable here than anyplace else, unless it’s really all about the resentful assumptions third parties bring to situations that may be quite different from how they appear to an outsider.

    • Ren says:


      Heh, I will NEVER trash dudes into BDSM or Sports…

      I have issue with older men who solely date younger women because they are young, and specifically look for ones who are young and niave. I would be equally suspicious of young women who exclusively dated older men, specifically older men, with, oh, good jobs and money.

      I mentioned the goth dude I knew…but, I also, in real life, know commentor Rorshack and his S.O., as he says, there is a 12 year age difference…however, the two of them seem as compatible, happy, good for each other, honestly into each other, all that as can be. They treat each other as partners and equals…he’s not her meal ticket, she’s not his trophy- thus, no problem and the types of stuff I am talking about here do not apply to them at all.

      THe goth dudes I was talking about, its a totally different situation.

    • dead_Vladimir says:

      while there is no universal rule, i do think sometimes generalizations occur for a reason. What Ren is pointing out here is the specific and not uncommon occurence of older men (in this case in the goth scene) acting out a Peter Pan dating complex.

  10. Gaina says:

    I swear I thought Pauley Perrette was 34, tops! I hope I look that good at 41 (although I got mistaken for a 24-year-old a few weeks ago so I think the omens are good :P).

    I know lots of people’s souls just ‘click’ and the age gap is of little consequence and genuine connections like that are lovely, but yeah I know the type you mean and they make my skin crawl too.

    I like *slightly* younger men, I must admit but 2-4 years younger would be my limit. Any younger and I doubt we’d be speaking the same language.

  11. rootietoot says:

    I’ve always liked older men for conversation, and even tho Terry’s only a year older than me, he’s 100 years old inside (the good 100 years, not the worn out 100 years).Now that I’m WAY past 20, those older men no longer discount me as a bit of fluff and I can talk to them. ( ‘course, that’s at a nursing home and they’ll talk to anyone who’ll sit down long enough…) I think it boils down to what Gaina said, some souls just click, and it would be shortsighted to discount age. That would be like saying “I only like people with brown eyes”. And, there are creeps of all sorts. Age is just one of the manifestations. We see it because it’s right OUT THERE to notice.

  12. Aspasia says:

    “I’m wary of anyone who has a “type” to whom they’re attracted to the exculsion of all others. Doesn’t matter if the typing is based on age, race, class or physical appearance. It’s one thing to have a taste for this or that characterixtic in a person. It’s another thing to care more about that characteristic than about the person.”

    A-fucking-men, Ernest! I’ve voiced my opinion on that very subject in the past, especially the race and physical appearance one, and I got shit on. Not online, in the fleshy world. The people who are the object of this ‘adoration’ think it’s great at first until they realize that they’ve been dehumanized because that characteristic was really the only interest the person had in them. I’ve been there on the receiving end and didn’t like it. Broke up with the guy after two weeks because it was just so obvious.

    Ren, I have Monica Bellucci, Helen Mirren and the immortal Tina Turner on that same list of insanely hot women over “a certain age”.

    • Ernest Greene says:

      Thanks, Aspasia. I’ve had the experience too, and I share your dislike of being on the receiving end of it. I don’t mind being a transitional object in someone’s search for submissive nirvana, but I have other purposes in life, and other aspects to my nature, that anyone who really wants to be close with me needs to understand and respect as well. I’m good for about a night’s worth of being desired for what I am. After that, it needs to be about who I am.

  13. Aspasia says:

    You’re welcome, Ernest and I totally agree.

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