Once again, More Experts On Porn….

Posted: February 27, 2010 in Pornography, Rants, Sex Work, The Hardline According to Ren

Who have never made any.

Something different here this time- here we have an Anti Porn Feminist (who has probably never worked in porn) and an MRA (who has probably never worked in porn) going at it about the eternal subject (porn), as if, you know, they know what the hell they are talking about. 

I want to say a few things real quick before I move on here though.  One, false statements have been made- in the APF missive, it is stated that all women in the industry have agents.  This is not true.  There are a ton of freelancers out there who act as their own agents, managers, accountants, so on  (exhibit A, raises hand).  Second, work in pornography is JUST as (if not more so) physically demanding , “dangerous” (wrt to STD’s and such) and taxing for men as it is for women, and they are generally paid far less for their work  (seriously, consider this required reading on the subject) .  It is true they do not have as high of a turn over rate and are less subject to appearance based guidelines however.    And as always, a few peeves.  One, the worship of Robert Jensen as a god amid men.  I’ve met and debated the dude and I thought he was a rude, imperious, dismissive jerk.  Two, the thought that porn is supposed to be “nice” and is oh so unique when it comes to people doing it because they do not have other choices.  Three, the once again poster-girling of Laura Roxx-and acting as if her story (which is horrible) is common-place when it is anything but.  Need I remind anyone that the rate of aids transmission between the General Population of Non- Porn People is FAR higher than it is AMID porn people?  Don’t believe me?  Come to Washington DC…  but yet, I am also irked by MRA’s dudes assumption that all women in porn choose to be there, or that making a choice when there really are no other real choices counts as a choice at all…because that is Bullshit.  Oh yeah, and this whole “porn says the truth about men and nothing about women?”  Well, you know me and universals wrt to THAT subject…  OH OH, and need I remind anyone  that Max Hardcore was tried, convicted, and is No Longer Making Porn…at all?  I guess so.    And I got yer empowerment right here

But be all that as it may…you know what (once again, now and forever, eternally) irks me about ALL this?  People who have never done porn talking about it, quoting experts who have never done it, speaking about how it is for those who do work in porn, and all that other shit that basically falls into the typical file.  You know who the REAL experts in porn are???

That’s right- the men and women involved in the Porn Industry.  That’s who.  They know FAR better how it is and how it works and what goes on than ANY armchair observer…but of course their opinions mean squat (more on that shit later, no doubt).  And that, well, y’all, that fuckin’ pisses me off.  I mean shit, I have no idea what it is like to perform open heart surgery because oddly enough, I’ve never done it!  I can have an opinion on it, sure, but I am no damn expert.  Hell, I even recognize not all open heart surgeries and surgeons are the same, imagine that shit?  However, I am no expert on the subject in any way.

Same  goes for porn and so called experts on it.  You can have an opinion, sure…but is it more valid than that of those in the business?  Fuck No.  And it never will be…whatever side of the debate you are on.

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Comments
  1. I don’t know if it’s just me, but some of Mith’s responses sound like he’s looking at as limited a spectrum of porn as his opposition. At least, male dominance doesn’t seem to be emphasized in even a large portion of the US-produced porn I’ve seen. (Admittedly, I’ve got my selection bias too.) … Feels like there’s something else, but I can’t pin it down. Some of the responses seem like odd tangents too. And lack of some things I’d think would be worth pointing out, like how often are women in porn not depicted as getting what they want?

    I’ve also never been sure how the parade of “fuck hole” and so forth is supposed to make anything sound dirty or disgusting. It just sounds… hilarious, actually.

    (And on a side note.. Triple anal? To quote Ali Davis, where would everyone stand?)

  2. Ernest Greene says:

    Sorry, I really tried but I just couldn’t wade through another exchange of lies and bullshit between ignorant fanatics discussing matters about which they know exactly nothing. In fact, before I ever do again, I’m going to insist that someone pay me for it, as I’m often accused of bing a “shill” for the porn industry. Shills get paid to shill. I get paid to make videos and magazines and I speak out in defense of what I do because I believe in what I do. Full-stop. Fuck anyone who hasn’t figured that out by now.

    What I did see was just more crap of the usual tired sort from the usual unreliable sources.

    The MRA dude has never done porn and has no clue about porn.

    The APF has never done porn and has no clue about porn (although she does have the holy scripture according to Bob Jensen, who has never done porn and knows nothng about porn, which deosn’t stop him from making a living lying about it)

    Again, from scanning this garbage I can see the usual suspects and the usual victims trotted out. Yep, there’s the tragic case of Lara Roxx again. Of course, Roxx herself has given so many different accounts of what actually happened it’s just a little difficult to clearly establish the facts of that case, not that those who have made her the symbol of bad, evil porn care about facts. If they did, they wouldn’t make fools of themselves with claims such as “all porn performers have agents.” I know some agents who dearly wish that was true, but it ain’t. And agent does not equal pimp BTW. Good agents, and we have several major ones out here, want to keep good talent who get a lot of bookings, They actually negotiate pretty fiercely to keep their talent happy because there’s plenty of comp[etition if they don’t. Returning to Roxx, her plight is indeed a sad one, but it has never been clearly established that she contracted HIV doing porn. That’s why there is no established Patient Zero in the 2004 outbreak. There is contradictory evidence regarding the early stages of those events and some of it would come as quite a shock to those who keep insisting they know exaclty who gave what to whom. I’ve seen that evidence, some of it photographic, and though I can’t legally reveal all details, I can say they don’t fit the APF narrative.

    The awkward fact remains that anyone, male or female, is more likely to get HIV on a date than on a porn set. L.A. County Health routinely reports abbout 1,600 new cases of HIV per year in its jurisdiction. In the entire 40 year history of legal het porn in the U.S., there have been a total of 15 HIV cases among performers. Two of those cases were established to have resulted from needle-sharing during I.V. drug use. One was contracted from a civilian before the female performer who had it did her one scene (which only happened because a single idiot director ignored a direct instruction from AIM’s clinic not to shoot her until her test results came back). Even the local health authorities who hate this business have publicly admitted that these figures are accurate. I think they pretty much tell the story to which Lara Roxx is an exception.

    Anything that quotes Hardcore Profits as a source is about as reliable as anything that quotes The Price of Pleasure. These are works of propaganda made by anti-porn activists. I don’t take James Dobson’s word for anything either. He and Jensen are two sides of he same coin at best.

    Where Max Hardcore is concerned, again, there are conflicting accounts of his behavior and it’s not his behavior for which he’s in jail,. He’s doing time for the movies he made, an issue not addressed in all its dire implications for unpopular speech, including radical feminist speecch, in anything I read. Max worked in this business in this town for 20+ years and not one single criminal complaint involving his conduct toward performers was ever filed with any law enforcemente agency. Even if you accept the fanciful notion that female performers are too cowed and beaten down to take such action (a belief that wouldn’t hold up ten seconds if you ever met one), Max has his share of enemies who would have loved to pin such a beef on him if they could have. Some performers describe working with him as a misery. Others have worked for him numerrous times. Some, including an ex of mine, worked for him a few times and then started dating him. It would seem to me that those performers who actually know the guy might be beter sources of accurate information than those who set out to crucify him before they ever laid eyes on him.

    And as to the notion that performers have no legal recourse, well, some producers who have been sued by performers, usually over money matters, might take issue with that. Were violence and coercion routine in the making of porn or even common in the making of porn, why would Joe Francis be facing rape charges? Cops love busting pornographers. And performers have cell phones. Put it together.

    The idea that getting sick and injured IS the job in porn – pure nonsense. Sick and injured performers can’t work and we have a very good mechanism in place, AIM, to make sure they don’t try. Both men and women work in this business for years on end and all their parts are still operational. Yes, there is wear and tear on the body, just as there is in all those other jobs dismissed as not comparable. As in those jobs, it’s incidental and in no way enabling to the objective, wihich is to get products made and sold in a lawful manner.

    I’ve aaid all this before, including to the good Dr. Jensen’s face, and he knows I’m telling the truth and he’s lying, but lying is his gig and he can’t afford to admit a single, tiny inaccuracy in his portrayal of this business. Likewise all the other censor-pimps who make their rent off trashing us. Fuck ’em.

    And as to the MRA dude, what the fuck does he know about anything? He’s a lousy writer and his experience is limited to what he sees on the screen, which is hardly representative in this part of the entertainment biz just as what you see in the theater doesn’t show fifteen-hour workdays, off-shoring of production to avoid union rules and the deaths of a half dozen stunt players every year. Those Keystone Kops pictures? Many stunt players died making those, and Sennet used the footage anyway rather than spend the money to reshoot it. They’re for-real snuff films and audiences still laugh at them when they’re shown in film school classes.

    Porn is part of the entertainment industry, which is not a boy scout business. It’s tough on everyone in it and those at the top make the kind money no one in porn, company owners included, will ever see, while almost everyone else struggles along from job to job hoping to pay the bills. Porn is neither the best nor the worst component of the much larger enterprise of which it is a part. People have bad experiences in all segments of the business of pleasing the crowd. Porn is both safer and kinder, from the inside at least, than many other ent biz gigs I’ve actually done, so those who haven’t tried working in both straight and porn movies should probably just take a step back.

    Which is not to say porn is Happyland. It’s not. Like most jobs, people do it because they need the money. Some of them need the money bad enough to do things they really don’t want to and shouldn’t. That’s true of countless other enterprises, but that doesn’t make it a good thing. No one should be doing a job he or she hates because it’s the only job they can get that pays enough to support kids or whatever other thing the money has to pay for. This is a separate issue having nothing to do with porn per se. Porn is by no means so hideous that the fact that people do it for money when they don’t want to is any more of a moral atrocity than the fact that young mothers join the military, in which they stand a very real chance of getting killed, because that’s the only way they can afford healtchare for their kids. Porn is work and it is not special. Say the opposite as often as you please. Doesn’t change a thing.

    So no, Mr. MRA dude and Ms. Porn-Hating Feminist, neither one of you is an authority on anything other than what twaddle you’ve absorbed third hand from hucksters trying to selll you this or that sort of bridge. I suggest both should feel free at any time to STFU until they’ve actually had some direct experience of their own with the subject about which they claim to know so much.

    • Ren says:

      See, you get it! Imagine THAT?

      LOL I so want Lisa to be my agent!

      But hey, what do We Know, Right???

      • Ernest Greene says:

        Inconvenient things, evidently. That’s why we don’t get invited to debate these jokers very often. When we do, the results don’t turn out quite to their liking.

        Funny how, for all the yak about being silenced, their side gets to show their little movies and give their little talks everwhere from Nightline to the U.N. but we evil agents of the all-powerful patriarchy are lucky to get a shot on XM radio.

        Kinda makes you wonder.

      • Hell, I want Lisa Ann to be the next Governor of Alaska myself.

        I’ve never claimed to be an expert on porn either..only a fan and a critic who wants to use it as a vehicle for more progressive human relations.

        What ticks me off so much about the APF’s (well, other than the usual BS of reducing men’s sexual fantasies to their worst, darkest, lowest common denominators, reality be damned) is the basic fact that they attempt to “speak” for every single “pornstiituted” woman as if the latter have no brains, no will, or no voice of their own…and if you don’t march to their perfect hymnal, you are either a “tool of the patriarchy”, a paid shill, or merely a dirty mindless slut (though usually they don’t dare say that to their target’s face directly).

        The issue I have with MRA’s, on the other hand (other than the basic fact that they are simply equally mindless assholes in principle), is that they simply think that taking the most symmetrical stance in opposition to the straw person they call a “feminist” is good enough of an argument. Like the APF’s , they want to reduce people to whatever fits their stereotypes, and if you don’t fit, you don’t exist.

        I’ve met and befriended far too many women in adult entertainment who bust those false molds.

        Maybe if we actually would indeed STFU for a bit and actually listen to what actual porn performers are saying about their lives, we would get a much clearer view.

        Anthony

  3. Ernest Greene says:

    And one more point that’s been made a million times before. Why is that, if APFs care so much about the “real women”harmed in the making of porn, they never make the slightest attempt to reach out to any of the women still making porn and ask them what they think and feel about it? They do manage, very rarely, to find an emibittered minor player who was in the business for about ten minutes and fled to shore up thier arguments, but resolutely exclude active female performers from any discussion of porn in which they participate.

    You only have to see the lengths the TPoP producers went to in their efforts to make sure that no one from the porn community would be present for the most recent showing of their movie here in L.A., after getting soundly thumped by a roomful of actual industry workers their first screening here, to know how intrested they are in the experiences of “the real women in porn.”

    And Winter Lights brings up a good point. The notion that porn is a zero-sum game in which all pleasure is had at the expense of women does not square with the reality of what porn depicts. Even the kinds of acts APFs regard as the most horrific and degrading are customarily shown in the context of consensual encounters in which both parties experience physical pleasure leading to orgasm.

    But you’d never know that if you never actually watched porn and swallowed whole the purely physical description of the action ladled out by porn-bashers. Somehow, they always leave out the part about the woman getting off too.I doesn’t fit the ideology so it must not be true.

    Real porn performers, male and female, are basically athletes. Some like to rougher games than others, but most who stick around for more than a month do so at least in part because they enjoy the physical challenges. That’s right, enjoy them. Just like dancers enjoy dancing and martial arts practiioners enjoy fighting. The game might get rough, but it’s stil a game they play for the most part because they want to be in it and don’t feel particularly abused over the relaively mild discomforts associatied with it.

    But then the only way anyone would know that would be by actually listening to what performers have to say about their work, and not just the few who flee hating it. And that would mean entertaining contrary opinions.

    I won’t hold my breath.

    • Ren says:

      Pfftt.. to them, hah, like we are REAL women….

      Remind me to send Nina her honorary cyborg card.

    • billy says:

      Oh yeah, female performers love their jobs.

      About two years ago a group of female performers were on Howard Stern, along with a group of older stars, indluding Blue Iris. THey were doing a ‘game show’ skit for a money prize,,,,,One of the questions was,,,,,,”What do you like least about doing porn?”,,,,,,,INSTANTLY, without a fraction of a second hesitation, all three of the young starlets said ‘ANAL’………and for so long everybody in the industry has been telling us how much these women enjoy anal sex. BUt his was for money, and the TRUTH came out very quickly.

      Yes Ernest, I agree, listen to what the perfromers themselves say.

      Do you honestly think that any person who wants to continue working is ever going to say anything other thatn ‘they love it.”

  4. “Where Max Hardcore is concerned, again, there are conflicting accounts of his behavior and it’s not his behavior for which he’s in jail”

    Well, probably a sore subject, but a performer who claims to have been outright raped by him in 2003, I think, has posted an hour-long series of videos about it a few days ago:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCheeseIsTasty

    She’s apparently not part of the Shelly Lubben cult either. (Though I will note that since posting those videos she’s been swarmed with positive attention by the YouTube anti-porn feminist posse, who are probably hoping she’ll become their poster child, since they’re visibly uncomfortable with having the right-wing Lubben in that role.)

    Given what other performers have said about Max Hardcore and his general reputation, I find her story credible. She unfortunately also goes off on Sharon Mitchell and AIM for supposedly being in cahoots with Hardore and supposedly covering up evidence of her rape, and obviously, I don’t buy that.

  5. Ernest Greene says:

    Slight correction here. Neesa joined Lubben’s Pink Cross Foundation 5/27/08. Interestingly, her last recorded AIM test was in 2006, one of a total of three tests for her in the entire data base. She has nine video titles to her name. In other words, typical of Lubben’s “saved porn stars,” Neesa had done very little work in the industry, about six month’s worth, Including a brief return to shooting in 2006, coinciding with her last test dates, and had already quit doing video two years before she was “rescued” by Lubben. She did work with Max Hardcore back in 2002 during her exceedingly brief career, but otherwise, she’s a pretty representative example of the kind of hanger-on Lubben attempts to depict as an experienced performer who knows all the industry’s dirty secrets.

    http://www.thepinkcross.org/pinkcross-blogs/shelley-lubben/january-2009/nadia-styles-leaves-porn-updated-with-video-and-testimony

    You’ll find Neesa down toward the end of the comment thread.

    Before swallowing Neesa’s charges whole you also might want to look at this:

    Certainly some will dismiss this, as they do all such interviews with working porn stars who don’t say the “right” things, but I don’t see any reason to find this clip less believable than her way-after-the-fact acusations of today. In this clip, Nessa appears in no way disturbed by anything she’s done and talks about her future work with evident amusement.

    She now claims this was believable because of her “acting skills” while at the same time stating repeatedly that she was obviously intimidated into doing the interview and was therefore not believable. So which was it, good acting or obvious fear? She also admits that anyone who has anything bad to say about her now is only feeding her need for attention. She further claims to have played a role in Hardcore’s conviction, when in point of fact she did not testify at his trial and no depositions or statements of hers were introduced during the proceedings, to which they wouldn’t have been relevant anyway, as he wsn’t charged with rape but rather obscenity.

    Neesa claims to have filed a police report after working with Max Hardcore, and that she knows of 12 other performers who have filed similar reports. Oddly, no record of any of these reports exists. Anyone who thinks the Altadena cops would let even one such report slide, much less a baker’s dozen, doesn’t know much about the Altadena cops and their relationship with Max Hardcore, who is one of the few L.A. pornographers to have been busted for obscenity under local ordinances (he beat that one). The cops here are not fans and would have jumped at the chance to charge him with a violent felony. And yet, no such arrest was ever made and no such reports are on file. Strange that.

    If you go to her blog,

    http://www.neesaxxx.com/blog

    You’ll find that Neesa describes herself thus:

    “.I am opinionated,bipolar,bisexual,liberal,pro-abortion,pro-suicide,a recurring mental patient(3 x’s so far),blunt,ballsy,I don’t care what people say/think about me.I am edgy,controversial,funny,smart(Blonde strippers can actually be),angry,filled with rage,devilish,scorned,sarcastic,evil,vengeful ( I fight w/my pussy.Not my fists,bitter,draining,I will suck the energy out of you with my cuspids,fun,pretty on the outside/a mess on the inside,loveless,bored,sardonic,a bit of a cunt,crazy ..but harmful only to myself.( I get that feeling where I want to walk up to whoever pissed me off..And shove a steak knife in my abdomen while laughing).I have no criminal record.And a clean driving record.So the people I did injure in the past are dead,and couldn’t testify against me.I have a dark sense of humor.Think,”Heathers”,or “Jawbreaker”.”

    She also adds this little item to her homepage screed:

    ” hopefully..my blogs will make you want to kill yourself.I have many quotes that I use.One being,”Kill yourself.The world is overpopulated”.”

    Now there’s a witness any prosecutor would love to put on the stand. She also lashes out at at various unnamed parties, male and female, who she feels have wronged her while gleefully boasting of her popularity in various online polls and how hawt she’s looking these days.

    In her own words, she’s “a mess.” And a dangerously irresponsible mess at that.

    Her allegations against AIM are false and odious, and interestinjgly timed in light of AHF’s attempt to prod HHS into a federal investigation of AIM, AHF being these days very much in league with Lubben’s crew. AIM’s arm’s-length relationship wih Max has been limited to providing the same services to him thatAIM provides to any other producer – test results, full-stop. The assertion that Sharon Mitchell was “in cahoots” with Max Hardcore is just about the most ridiculous and malicious falsehood imaginable, and is rather oddly coincidental with the relentless effort to discredit AIM being mounted by AHF, Lubben and certain parties in the state government determined to undermine AIM’s support in order to forward their own agendas.

    Did someone encourage her to suddenly go public on youtube with her
    unsubstantiated claims? I can’t imagine that it would be difficult to persuade an angry, bi-polar exhibitionist to grab such an opportunity for attention. During her rambling diatribe, she repeatedly consults notes using legalistic language not in keeping with her general disorganized way of narrating her story. Wonder who gave her that boilerplate to quote.

    In point of fact, AIM’s policy regarding sexual assault couldn’t be clearer. Ii any performer came to the AIM cliinic claiming to have been raped, she’d get a ride to the police station on the spot. That’s the policy and interestingly, the occasion to enforce it has never arisen. This part of her story is a complete fabrication. So why should we accept the rest? And given the way the usual quackers have lined up to make her a big hero, why she we be so credulous as to believe that she has no connection with any of them? Again, the alliance between Lubben’s right-wng fundamentalist tax-exempt foundation and individuals and groups associated with causes anathema to her religious beliefs shows just what kind of bedfellows the anti-porn movement makes.

    I have said again and again that if Max Hardcore committed any of the acts routinely stated as fact but with no proof at all by those who hate him, he should be in jail for those acts, not for the pictures for which he is, in fact, in jail. If there are 13 instances of reports of violent acts being filed with law enforcement agencies, why was no action taken and why are there no records of such reports on file, as required by law?

    So fi Neesa is telling the truth, why is she on youtube instead of giving her evidence in court?

    I know, I’m going to get shot at for daring to challenge the veracity of a claim of rape, which is part of hte process of chipping away at the presumption of innocence in these cases (something ND thinks should be done away with anyway and I know she’s not the only one), but until someone at least makes a formal complaint through the criminal justice system, Max Hardcore is no more guilty of rape than any other crime for which he has not been tried and convicted. He doesn’t even qualify as a suspect in any formal sense.

    But for those who want to believe he’s a violent criminal because of the videos he made, no lack of due process is a concern.

    This witness has made conflicting statements, as you see from the clip above, and her claims against AIM are false and defamatory. So how does this make her a believable witness to anyone who isn’t already a believer?

    Once more for the millionth time, I’m not a fan of Max Hardcore. I don’t like his pictures and I don’t dismiss all criticisms of his behavior out of hand. I do think that he’s the designated target of those who wish to paint him as somehow typical of pornographers and the way they do business, and that some of those same individuals are now trying to hang him around AIM’s neck, which is just plain despicable. He has plenty of critics inside the industry, but that doesn’t make him a criminal.

    So now, IACB, do you still find Neesa’s story credible?

    • I stand corrected about her not being affiliated with Shelly Lubben, though I will note that she’s been writing about Max Hardcore going back to 2006 at least, several years before she seems to have hooked up with Lubben.

      The “exit interview” video was something I’d seen some time ago, and she specifically points out that her most recent video was a response to the use of that video to dismiss her prior claims. I don’t consider the exit video to definitively refute her version of events, because its entirely possible she was just saying what she needed to to get her money and get the fuck out. And fact, the vibe she gives off is that she’d rather not spend any longer with that guy than she had to.

      As for her time in porn, she’s been on-again, off-again in porn for some time, actually, having worked for Bang Bros as recently as last year. In any event, I’ve never been one to dismiss somebody out of hand just because they’re a “small timer”, of whom there are many in porn. (Especially, if an IAFD footprint is the only measure – I can think of several performers who are have better known and have done far more work than their meager IAFD list might indicate.)

      On the other hand, looking at some of her writing, your point about her being “a mess” is certainly the case. However, its not like somebody who’s a mess can’t happen to make a truthful report of sexual assault, though, yes, it does call their credibility into account. I have to fall back on what *else* I’ve heard about Max Hardcore, and a lot of it isn’t exactly good.

      As for her case against AIM and Sharon Mitchell, as I said, I never put any stock in that to begin with. Regarding this part:

      “Neesa also neglects to mention that the free test they do is an ELISA with a six-month window period, as opposed to AIM’s PCR-DNA which detects infection within ten days.”

      Actually, that’s exactly what I figured to be the case when she mentioned free HIV testing elsewhere. I’ve had training in ELISA and PCR as a biotech, btw, and I know how much more labor- and equipment-intensive the latter process is. A clinic would have to be *extremely* generously funded to be able to offer something like that to all comers for free.

      • Ernest Greene says:

        “In any event, I’ve never been one to dismiss somebody out of hand just because they’re a “small timer”, of whom there are many in porn. (Especially, if an IAFD footprint is the only measure – I can think of several performers who are have better known and have done far more work than their meager IAFD list might indicate.)”

        And I deeply resent the implication that I do. If you look back at how this thread started, the OP was about people with little or no experience of porn presuming to speak for or about it. Neesa’s experience is extremely limited and right now thousands of people are watching her present herself as an expert.

        If you really are an expert at something from years and years of first-hand experience, that shit is going to piss you off. i support her right to go on youtube and wish breast cancer on Sharon Mitchell, and thus do not “dismiss” her, but I do not feel obligated to embrace her as an expert on porn. So perhaps it turns out that she made twelve titles instead of nine. I’ve made over 700 during the past 25 years. Excuse me if I don’t care to have my expertise dismissed in favor of hers.

        And your claim that you can read her “body-language” during the exit interview echoes hers and that of several of her groupies on youtube, but I’ve looked at more BTS footage than any of you by about 10,000 hours and I can’t tell from viewing hers whether she was eager to get away from Max, which is entirely possible, high on drugs, going out to get high on drugs and therefore antsy, or just new to the game and possessing little understanding of how she comes across on camera. I don’t disbelieve what she said at the time and I don’t disbelieve what she says now regarding Max. Obviously, she was dishonest in one instance or the other, and we know at the moment she’s telling whoppers about AIM, which is all that concerns me.

        Where her other claims are concerned, personally, I fall back on that tedious presumption of innocence. Until somebody at least charges Max with rape, he doesn’t even qualify as an sccused rapist in the legal sense, and Neesa’s implication that he may have been jailed, or his sentence enhanced, by what “else” the judge, like you, may presume to know about his off-screen behavior sickens me.

        In this, I have an unexpected ally, Ann Bartow the porn-hating rad-fem lawyer, who also opposes censorhship on legal grounds and who, when Neesa visited her blog to rant about Max as a rapist and her delight over his imprisioinment, politely pointed out that if Paul LIttle had committed rape he should have been prosecuted for that and not for his movies. Bartow has plenty of opinions about porn, not exactly good as you would say, but she still feels that due process is more important than finding a way to throw people in jail for being odious whether they’re guilty of the specific crime with which they’re charged or not. I’ll take her “expert” opinion on that if I must over any more speculation about whether or not Max got what he deserved or further attempts to interpret Neesa’s body language during a short video clip.

        In truth, now that he’s gone, I look forward to hearing less and less about Paul Little. He was a great favorite among porn bashers and almost universally despised among pornographers. He is an example of nothing but himself. He made a kind of picture that enough people liked to make him some money, but he’s now out of business for good and the money is gone forever. He won’t be making any more pictures and that’s the end of his story, even though he sits behind bars for all the wrong reasons.

        As a real expert on porn, that is a guy who has made it for a living for a great many years and knows virtually everyone who has been doing it professionally for any significant length of time, I consider Max Hardcore an ugly distraction from much more important questions that need addressing far more urgently, such as the possible success or failure of the Lubben/Weinstein campaign to shove AIM out of the way so they can proceed to undue the Freeman decision by indirect means and return porn to its prohibited status, which is the sure and certain result of rendering it unsafe with the inevitable casualties to follow.

        Perhaps this is a somewhat larger concern than Paul Little’s transgressions, the nature of which is still a matter of conjecture based on claims unsupported by any legal investigation whatsoever.

        • *I* claim that I can read her body language? Did I ever even say that? You’re confusing me with some of these freaks on YouTube, one of whom also claims that she can tell from “body language” that somebody is standing to her left, threatening her.

          I’m simply saying that what she’s doing in the video doesn’t exactly contradict her later claims.

          “In this, I have an unexpected ally, Ann Bartow the porn-hating rad-fem lawyer, who also opposes censorhship on legal grounds and who, when Neesa visited her blog to rant about Max as a rapist and her delight over his imprisioinment, politely pointed out that if Paul LIttle had committed rape he should have been prosecuted for that and not for his movies.”

          Have I *ever* said anything differently from this? No. In fact, I think my exact words from around the time Bartow made that quote was that I actually agreed with her about this – and that would be the sound of hell freezing over. (And considering the shit-talking I’ve personally received from Ms. Bartow, for me to say I agree with her on anything is no small statement.)

          • Ernest Greene says:

            We’re splitting hairs.

            “I don’t consider the exit video to definitively refute her version of events, because its entirely possible she was just saying what she needed to to get her money and get the fuck out. And fact, the vibe she gives off is that she’d rather not spend any longer with that guy than she had to.”

            Do you not consider that inferential? Vibe, body-language, what’s the difference? You’re still drawing a broad interpretation based on a fleeting impression.

            And you still haven’t addressed my real question, which is why are we arguing about the veracity of someone’s claims about an individual when it’s her claims about an entire industry and those who serve it that are factually incorrect, morally indefensible and profoundly dangerous?

            This thread is about bullshit artists posing as experts on porn and doing harm in the process. Perhaps we could attempt a return to that topic if we’re done with Max Hardcore. I certainly am.

            • Its a fleeting impression, but I’m not making huge claims based on it. All I’m saying is it doesn’t contradict what she says later. You were the one who brought it up earlier in the thread as a counter-argument.

              If you want to be done with the topic of Max Hardcore, fine. Again, you were the one who brought up the topic of his guilt or innocence way upthread, if you look back at it.

              “which is why are we arguing about the veracity of someone’s claims about an individual when it’s her claims about an entire industry and those who serve it that are factually incorrect, morally indefensible and profoundly dangerous?”

              Well, I haven’t seen her actually make claims about the entire industry yet. (Though her association with Shelley Lubben would imply that isn’t exactly friendly toward it.) Mainly she makes claims about Max Hardcore. Secondarily, she makes claims about AIM and Sharon Mitchell, claims which I specifically have said I don’t put any stock in.

              Now as far as the subject of the thread goes, I believe it is to the effect that those who have actually done porn are the real experts on the topic. Not, I believe, only if they’ve done more porn than X number of movies.

              • Ernest Greene says:

                Done on this. It’s fundamentally a derail over one person’s claims and addresseds neither the OP nor the larger matters confronting the industry as a result of non-experts meddling in it.

  6. Ernest Greene says:

    Just to make a point here for the benefit of those who have already written off everything I’ve said as the typical rationalizations of a professional porn apologist, rape enabler and victim blamer, I want to post something that I think does describe the experience of working with Paul Little accurately, and in terms that cannot be read as postive in any way.

    Julie Meadows had a substantial career in porn, including a stint as a VCA contract player, over a period of several years. I shot her a couple of times and found her bright, competent, straightforward and entirely reasonable. She’s the very definition of a sex work professional.

    Her I believe. This is what she has to say on her blog about her one on-set encounter with the character known as Max Hardcore:

    http://www.juliemeadows.com/blog/2009/05/22/paul-little/#more-179

    You will note that there are no over-the-top claims about rape, intimidation, physical abuse, etc. However, she very effectively conveys the sense of creepiness that may turn on some viewers but makes most everyone else want to flee at the very thought of having to watch the guy in action. Doesn’t make him a violent sexual predator or someone who deserves to be in jail just because he’s a misogynst asshole. Just makes him a pathetic loser who takes advantage of those who let him.

    When they don’t let him – and anyone who knows Julie would recognize right away her decisive setting of limits and how effectively she enforces them – he backs down. Should any performer have to go to such lengths? No way. That’s why I think the guy is a creep. I hate people who try to get something out of someone who has already said no to it. But it’s a long way from being a jerk to being a rapist. Julie never even implies that Little threatened her in any way or put a hand on her in a fashion she told him not to. He just tried to manipulate her and it didn’t work. Alas, I know it did work with many, and that’s deplorable, but manipulation is not interchangeable with force.

    Behind this latest little spat, I sense the underlying hostility toward mainstream porn or the porn industry or commercial porn or in any case the kind of porn we make out here in the company town. I will say again that no place else is it safer, cleaner or better paid to make porn. The idea that out there in alt-world things are somehow better is laughable to those of us who hear every day from women who did Internet work in some obscure place and are now eager to work here to get away from the local equivalents of Max Hardcore, who operate outside the orbit of the regular players who, like Julie, can call them out on their rotten behavior.

    The commonly heard charge that we knowingly shelter those who engage in criminal behavior out here is nicely shot down by the case of Skeeter kerkove.

    Ever heard of Kerkove? For a few years, he was one of the most sought-after directors of the hardest gonzo material on the market. Unlike Paul Little, he didn’t give off an easily detected creepo vibe, though I never did like him, but he had an interesting past he’d not bothered to mention, until somebody dredged it up.

    Turns out Kerkove was a registered sex offender under Megan’s Law. He’d also had run-ins with the authorities over a few other matters. Here are some highlights from his rap shieet:

    Filing date: 8/29/85
    Charges: 311.4C; 289A
    Criminal Case #: A 771059 (Archived in downtown Los Angeles)

    311:4 (Misdemeanor) Printing or possessing obscene material featuring a minor.

    289A: Sexual penetration against victim’s will by force…

    Filing Date: 4/16/91
    Offenses: 12020(A)PC: Unlawful manufacture, import, sale or possession of weapons.
    Case #: 91F04022

    Filing Date: 6/7/91
    Offenses: 23153(A)VC: Driving under the influence of alcohol, drugs or combination. Unlawful act or neglected duty causing injury to another while driving.
    Case #: 91D03865

    Hearing Date: 4/3/92
    Charges: H 11351: Possession for sale of a controlled substance aka drugs.
    Criminal Case #: BA 055230

    Filing Date: 5/10/96
    Offenses: 273.5(A)/21: Corporal injury to spouse/former spouse or cohabitant/former cohabitant
    Case #: 62F02766

    After this information was made public on several industry Web sites in 2005, Kerkove became radioactive. No company would hire him. Companies that had products he’d shot pulled them from the shelves. Kerkove loudly proclaimed his innocence all over the Internet, but he was fnishied. He vanished from Los Angeles and hasn’t been seen since. I don’t know where he is, but I’m willing to bet he won’t be coming back here. There are some people who would be quite eager to greet him in an appropriate fashion – with an aluminum baseball bat full of copper shot.

    Okay, I’ve taken up enough of Ren’s space with all this bullshit, but I have one more point to make. When Shelley Lubben and Michael Weinstein hauled the pitiful Jan Meza in front of the press to describe the horrors of her momentary porn career, Meza also went out of her way to make the same attacks against AIM and Sharon Mitchell personally for “failing to protect me” that Neesa makes, in some places almost word for word.

    There is indeed a pattern in all this – a pattern of deliberate distortion of the facts intended to discredit the most effective community-based sex-worker support program in the United States, using any far-fetched charge that can be mustered for the purpose, and thereby to demonstrate that our community cannot regulate itself and must be placed under the control of whatever agencies or organizations Shelley Lubben and Michael Weinstein (I still can’t get past the idea of putting these two names in the same sentence – a religious fanatic who believes homosexuality is an abomination before god and an HIV-AIDS activist whose constituency consists overwhelmingly of gay men) deem suitable.

    There’s lots of testimony floating around about the adult video business here in L.A.. and most of it’s false. But the truth is available to those who care to dismount their own hobby horses long enough to seek it out.

    • “When Shelley Lubben and Michael Weinstein hauled the pitiful Jan Meza in front of the press to describe the horrors of her momentary porn career, Meza also went out of her way to make the same attacks against AIM and Sharon Mitchell personally for “failing to protect me” that Neesa makes, in some places almost word for word.”

      Interesting.

      I’ll also point out this: although the video I linked to is new, Neesa has been quite vocal about her treatment by Max Hardcore for several years now, both on her own blog and in the comments sections of numerous blogs and forums throughout the interwebs. However, the above-mentioned video from a few days ago is, to the best of my knowledge, the first time she’s brought up AIM or Sharon Mitchell, either in connection with Max Hardcore or in any context.

      • Ernest Greene says:

        Yes, Neesa’s attacks on Max Hardcore pre-date the current youtube barrage by a couple of years, which makes the timing of it that much more suspicious.

        And I’d like it personally if you’d recognize and admit that your assumption about her not being part of the Lubben crowd was just flat wrong. Go to Lubben’s blog and check out Neesa’s join date for yourself, as I did.

        I’m not defending Paul Little, something I would find impossible to do. Nor do I deny that Neesa has unfiinished personal business with him. The reason your harping on the evil that is Max Hardcore is a sore point is because he’s unrepresentative of anything or anyone. He’s an outlier as controversial inside this business as outside. He has his fans, of whom I am not one, but he has also been criticized by many important figures in the industry, including other company owners, who feel that his usefulness to porn-bashers far outweighs any money anyone else might make off his products. Are we prepared to abandon his free speech rights because we don’t like him or his movies? You know the answer to that.

        We can’t. If they’d sent him to jail for raping Neesa or anyone else, good riddance, provided the charges were proven true through due process of law. But he was sent to jail for making pictures, which should never happen to anyone in a society that considers itself free. It shouldn’t happen to those who engage in hate speech or make vile porn with adult humans or speak truith to power either. So off it about Max already.

        The important point now, what with Max being in jail for some time to come, is that Neesa has been enlisted in the campaign to destroy AIM, and her testimony regarding everything else is of little moment in that much larger drama.

        So, do you or do you not still regard her as credible or what she has to say about Max Hardcore more important than the damage she’s doing by convincing the dopes she’s gotten onboard to echo her on youtube that AIM is a corrupt operation run by liars, crooks and rape enablers for the money?

        What’s the priority here?

  7. rootietoot says:

    what fascinates me about this whole conversation is the idea (in the links of the post) that women in the sex industry are EVIL and VICTIMS. Which is it? Also the notion that women in the sex industry are completely incapable of thinking for themselves, and the men are all predators. Now, at the risk of redundancy…I am sure there are women who are victims. There are housewives who are victims. I am sure there are men who are predators. There are accountants and mechanics who are predators. Is the porn industry magnetic to predators and victims? I don’t know, but to say that ALL this and ALL that is silly. It’s a business, with smart people, greedy people, people who do it because they’re good at it, or because they think it’s a quick buck, whatever. There’s people like that in every business.
    Now, pornography is not something I Approve Of (entirely). I don’t like it and it’s not allowed in the house. Well, ok, not much, and certainly not the edgier stuff. Anyway. What I’m trying to say it that it’s kinda sad that people in that industry should feel it so necessary to defend themselves, should have to prove over and over again their point, when the Robert Jenson types just have to make a baseless theory and people are all over it like it’s gospel, because it fits their fantasy of How Things Are.

    • Beste says:

      Robert Jensen, Micheal Flood, Clive Hamilton, Gale Dines etc..All have the weight of acedemia behind them.

      Which is why their theories get taken up like its gospel.

  8. Ernest Greene says:

    Interestingly, we’re not the ones out to convert anybody. The other side makes it sound as if we search the world for people to victimize and manipulate. In fact, we have more than enough willing talent to do what we need to do and aren’t looking to suck anybody in.

    Likewise, we have plenty of consumers, so no need to make converts there either.

    So it’s in no way necessary to any of us for porn to meet with universal approval. We merely want it recogni8zed that what we do is lawful, which it is, and that the vast majority of us play by rules at lest as strict as those in any other business, and that it does indeed get old having to rebut the same lies over and over and over from the same sources.

    You don’t have to like porn to understand that the attacks leveled against it are obvious hokum.

  9. Lucy says:

    I can’t speak about MRAs, but as a feminist the addiction that feminists, especially the anti-porn feminists, have for so-called experts who “study” their subject from a distance bothers me. Especially given that these experts are then used to silence the subjects of their study. The fact that it is in conflict with basic feminist principles of listening to women’s voices should be a giant red flag for any feminist, and yet, it is brushed off. It is one thing to do an analysis of porn as far as its social effects, it is another to make blanket statements about the women who perform within it especially when the voices of some of those women (like those actively in the industry) are specifically excluded from consideration. But then I’ve noticed most anti-porn feminists I’ve run across only care about some women, such as those who are most like themselves, and most prefer those who are silent victims.

  10. Ernest Greene says:

    Good call Lucy. It would seem that the line from the old Peanuts comic strip to the effect that “I love humanity, it’s people I hate” would apply to some of the individuals you’re talking about. Victims as a class are so much easier to deal with than individual victims who might have dare to disagree with their self-appointed defenders.

    On another note, I picked up something I’d missed in Nessa’s rants from previous viewings:

    If you check out this segment:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCheeseIsTasty#p/f

    You will note that not only does she call Sharon Mitchell a bunch of schoolyard names and wish that she gets breast cancer, she also repeats the old wheeze about AIM being a monopoly tha makes money off performers. That’s a good one. AIM, unlike either Pink Cross or AHF, is a real non-profit in the true sense of the word. Testing pays for testing. Treatment pays for treatment. There’s just enough left over to pay the tiny staff something approaching a living wage.

    However, Neesa does manage to slip in a plug for “free” HIV testing available through the Out of the Closet thrift stores scattered around L.A. Performers can get tested there “by people they trust” without having to pay.

    Just a couple of things she leaves out. The OotC stores are operatted by AHF, the outfit run by our pal Michael Weinstein. The stores take in about 18 million bucks a year in revenues and, according to the non-partisan charity evaluators at http://www.charitynavigator.org they get a one-star rating out of a possible four because only about 23 cents of each dollar brought in actually goes toward HIV prevention and treatment. No wonder, given that the store chain’s director pulls down a cool 200K per year in salary.

    Neesa also neglects to mention that the free test they do is an ELISA with a six-month window period, as opposed to AIM’s PCR-DNA which detects infection within ten days.

    But she does manage to out herself as carrying water for both Weinstein and Lubben in their vendetta against AIM.

    Anybody still think this source is credible in any way at this point, or that the timing of her debut on youtube is coincidental to AHF’s pettition to HHS to investigate AIM?

  11. Reading the exchange between IACB and Ernest reminds me of why I’m always a bit skeptical of the “only those who have been in porn can comment about what porn does” meme.

    This isn’t to say that you shouldn’t trust the views of an insider with the industry; but it’s become a standard practice for the antis to prop out former porn starlets (including the likes of Shelley LaLoon..errrr, Lubben) to make their case about the innate evil of porn, The fact that many of these “ex-pornies” turn out to be lesser travelled, third-tier performers who didn’t quite make a success, but who now use the anti-porn message and the “come to Jesus” moment to push whatever new careers they are pursuing, doesn’t blunt the attempts within the broader antiporn movement to use them as examples of how destructive porn allegedly becomes.

    What makes it so frustrating is that there are some pretty strong and vocal women in the industry whose personal stories can’t be reduced to one extreme of success or utter failure, but is far more complex and varied…but, because the media only want stories of either “woman despoiled and desecrated by porn” or “woman making money hand over fist over tits”, their stories get lost somewhere in the ether. Or, they get pilloried as “shills for the porn industry who are only saying what THE MAN wants them to say just to get paid”.

    The very idea that women in porn can have brains of their own, thoughts of their own, and even feelings of their own not imported to them through the dicks of their male counterparts seems not to even register with some people in this debate.

    On the other hand, though, I do think that a lot of men who do enjoy porn could use some humility and empathy in respecting the women we admire and wank to as more than just a throwaway fantasy. It’s one thing to defend your right to enjoy watching your favorite girl engaging in hot sex; it’s another thing altogether to acknowledge that that same girl is an actress with a life not neccessarily built around kneeling at the closest dick nearby. Nothing wrong with being slutty….but can’t be slutty 24/7; she does happen to have a life beyond sex.

    Mostly, though, when it comes to experiences within porn, I trust people who’ve been there and done it far more than I would trust anyone else. Especially over people with not-so-hidden antisex agendas.

    Anthony

    • I largely agree with you on that point, Anthony, and I do think the “only the inside group has any authority to speak about that group” derived from identity politics has its limitations. Now on one hand, insider perspectives are critical, and the slogan “Nothing About Us Without Us” ought to be a core value of all progressive movements, though in too many cases, it isn’t. (eg, the porn and prostitution abolitionist movement, “vanguard” parties, nanny statists, and the like).

      But on the other hand, there are also going to very different perspectives within any group, and in some groups, outright warring factions. Its ludicrous to suggest that outsiders should just turn off critical faculties when trying to evaluate differences of opinion inside a group when trying to reach an informed perspective. Regarding porn, its important to take into account that different people can have very different experiences in it, and that accounts for the range of opinions. But on the other hand, its simply not logically possible to square the description of the porn industry given by Shelly Lubben with that given by Sasha Grey or Ernest Greene. One has to exercise some critical thinking here, and given the degree that Lubben is a fundamentalist, and comes across as an outright nutter, leads me to not put a lot of stock in what she has to say, even if does have experience doing porn and I don’t.

      • Ernest Greene says:

        As what I hope will be a final note, this is not an abstract debate about identity politics, a phrase I don’t recall anyone in porn ever having used in my 25 years here. Nor does it require others to “turn off critical fackulties” or not weigh in on whatever specific topic is under discussion.

        The real issue has nothing to do with politics at all. It’s about who knows what and who is qualified to evaluate that reality.

        Outsiders’ observations can be useful, as their perspectives are certain to be different from those who are very close to a thing, but that doesn’t make them experts and when they posture themselves as such, they’re likely to get called out on it by those whose experience clearly establishes their credentials to speak as authorities on the subject.

        Ren’s point as I take it, and I think it’s a good one, is that you simply can’t know much about the realities of making porn until you’ve had substantial direct exposure to the process. You can have an informed opinion or an uninformed opinion, but it’s just that, an opinion, at best backed by second-hand accounts, but lacking the weight of direct observation. An outsider may, for instance, have the ability to spot an outright charlatan like Lubben, or for that matter some equally obvious fabulators within the industry who oppose her, but where the situations are less clear cut, critical thinking is indeed necessary, and that critical thinking needs to recognize the limitations imposed by a lack of personal experience.

        This is not about identity politics. It’s about the annoyance of being talked about in the third person when you’re in the room.

    • Ernest Greene says:

      Neither Ren nor I suggested that only those who have done porn should be allowed to comment on it. Nevertheless, when people with little or no direct experience of it pose themselves as experts and attempt to drown out the voices of those who actually do the work for a living, the result is politically-motivated disinformation drives out reality.

      There is plenty of criticism of aspects of that reality within the industry, a point I’ve tried to make to counter accusations that such voices have been silenced by the evil people who run it. Take a quick spin through ADT or AdultFYI and you’ll find plenty of evidence to the contrary.

      I do find the manipulative use of marginal players with personal grudges by anti-porn organizations offensive and unethical. They do the very thing they accuse the industry of doing – presenting a few isolated examples as typical of everyone who has ever shot a scene. That doesn’t mean they have no right to speak and be heard. But the antis ability to stage media events built around them at the expense of everyone has unfortunate consequences and msut therefore be challenged. As a result, performers are set against other performers, which plays into the hands of those hostile to the whole enterprise, but cannot be avoided unless false accusations by a tiny group of self-appointed crusaders are to go unanswered.

      If there were a shortage of debate in open spaces within the industry, which there clearly is not if you follow industry blogs, I’d be a little more willing to let these things pass, but when they’re orchstrated to discredit all other opinions by people who have demonstrated a determination to destroy the industry as we know it, I don’t think we have that luxury.

      The right to comment by those with little or no direct experience of making porn doesn’t automatically lend their comments equal credibility with those of people who have lived the reality of making porn for substantial periods of time, anymore than the opinions of outside observers of any other field would be grantaed the same consideration as those who work in it daily.

      This is not a meme. This as a matter of substance, and if you’ve been shouting for 25 years and not being heard in places where those who know little or nothing but play to the agendas of porn’s sworn enemies can get all the attention they want from MSM and various special interest groups, it’s a very serious matter.

      Comment away. Just don’t presume to speak for those who know the details of the topics under discussion and are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves, if given the opportunity.

  12. Leon says:

    I have a book I occasionally look at, “What is wrong with the Soviet Union”, published 1936 by Trotsky. So much of what he says about the way revolutionary ideals were betrayed there until they as good as had the Autocracy back but more unshakeable because it was wearing ‘revolutionary’ clothes and quoting revolutionary slogans has happened time after time with any number of ‘revolutions’. Maybe they get manipulated by traditional powers behind the scenes, maybe they just attract people onto the bandwagon to feel free to do what they want – but what they want is the fear and prejudice they grew up with.

    I’ve had more ‘feminists’ tell me what an evil misogynist sinner I am for enjoying watching women in teasing and wet pants porn, and being ‘stupid enough’ to really believe that they could actually enjoy any of it the same as I in their position would, than I ever have from religious types.

    The fact that I actually watch this stuff, in their minds who are proud of never having sullied their purity with such filth, means that I must be too corrupt to hold any valid opinion on it. We can find much the same coming from Evangelical Christian pronouncements on the evils of Islam and any other belief they fear far too much to ever risk learning anything about it that might corrupt them.

    But actually, do these Victorian Virgins matter? They are a pain in the arse it’s true, but so are religious fundamentalists and both are about as relevant to modern life. It’s possible that teenage girls might believe that if they are sexually free, boys will despise them as ‘sluts’ because some older women say so, as older women always have said so whatever they called themselves, and they will find boys who do. They will also find boys who don’t and learn that the first bunch have no respect for women however those women behave. Their proper answer is strength to tell those where to go and to choose the ones who expect women to be much the same as themselves – and aren’t afraid sometimes to be much the same as they expect of women, not ‘feminist’ whining weakness encouraging belief that women are naturally sexless creatures now free from subordination to satisfy men’s evil lusts.

    I’ve had choice crap from these Biddies along lines of after long argument that most women and girls have sex because they choose to do so, not because some ‘dominant male’ makes them feel ‘obliged’ that “You do realize she’s dong it for herself, not for you?” Well yes – that is the point I made that ‘you’ have spent God knows how long denying! I’ve had the same self-styled ‘feminists’ follow me from board to board for most of last year because I said that continuing to want to force sex on somebody who has made is clear she does not want it is no more than wanting rape and in most cases, a man who actually cares about her will react to sexual refusal with some other kind of sexual intimacy, not try to browbeat her into something he knows she will not enjoy.

    No, in ‘feminist’ eyes, as long as something can be called ‘consent’ – or at least lack of refusal – everything is fine. I ask myself, is this because that is how they treat sex partners or their fantasy of men as something like a child#’s fantasy of adulthood as free from any restraint or consideration for how others feel? The real secret of these ‘Puritan-feminists’ is their deep belief in their own inferiority to a fantasy image of men as the dominating aggressors their resentment at feeling themselves ‘inferior females’ longs to be and cannot bear to see shattered by men failing to act like Charles Bronson on a bad day.

    But how many women behave, or at least think, like you and how many like these ‘feminists’? They have to be the louder to make up for their lack of numbers and ‘real’ women in the ‘real’ world we all live in wondering where the hell they have been locked up in a timewarp!

  13. billy says:

    Ernest,
    Regarding your blantaly false statements about Lara Roxx,,,
    You stated,,,,,”Her plight is indeed a sad one, but it has never been clearly established that she contracted HIV doing porn. That is why ther is no established patient zero in the 2004 case.”

    ABSOLUTELY 100% FALSE,
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5437a3.htm

    This is the cdc report, that clearly states that all the HIV sequences were identical, and that the MALE INDEX PATIENT was the source of all the infections.

    Shame on you Mr Greene, for making such blantatly false statements, especially coming from the President of the BOD of AIM.

    And shame on you for misrepresenting the effectiveness of the pcr test. The window,or ‘eclipse’ period for that tests is a MINIMUM of ten days,,,,,,,As you can plainly see in the CDC reprt, one female worked with James on March 30, and tested negative on April 12,,,!3 DAYS LATER. But dont take my word for it,,,read the report, of course, one would think that the AIM presidient would have already been aware of this report.

    The report states that the “source patient” for this INDEX patient(d.james) is unknown.

    Regarding you other information, and the ‘pictures’ you talk about(that picture on adultfyi.com)
    Yes, Lara was a mess, but it was the fact that she had active herpes, and perhaps other active std’s that made her much more suseptable to contracting the virus……And about that picture you refer to…..how come nobody ever questions who the GUY in that picture is that is having unprotected sex with someone who is CLEARLY having a herpes outbreak? How many people did that GUY have sex with after that picture was taken,,,,how come nodocyever talks about that,(the goodl ole BOYS network at its finest)

  14. Billy:

    I will not claim to speak for Ernest Greene, and he, if he chooses, will respond in his own time. However, I will attempt my own response, since a lot of what you say misses several points.

    How you conceive his response as a personal attack on Lara Roxx is simply ridiculous…and, as you say, “100% FALSE”. The report you cite only says that she contracted HIV antibodies that were similar to the ones in the “INDEX MALE PATIENT” (Darren James, who really was the “Patient Zero” in that 1994 “outbreak”). That is still not necessarily proof that Roxx directly contracted HIV from James during their unprotected sex scene, it only proves that she was indeed HIV+ at the time of her last test. No one, including Ernest, ever sought to pin the blame of her plight on her.

    And shame on you for misrepresenting the effectiveness of the pcr test. The window,or ‘eclipse’ period for that tests is a MINIMUM of ten days,,,,,,,As you can plainly see in the CDC reprt, one female worked with James on March 30, and tested negative on April 12,,,!3 DAYS LATER. But dont take my word for it,,,read the report, of course, one would think that the AIM presidient would have already been aware of this report.

    Like I said, I’m not an expert on the PCR-MIA test, but considering that Darren James was reported to have contracted the HIV virus on a trip abroad the week before that infamous shoot, an alternative explanation might be that he was indeed clean at the time of that test. The fact that only he and the three other female performers involved in that shoot were found to be infected with HIV should be seen as genuine proof that AIM-MED’s system of testing works…especialy compared to the alternatives of the past (remember the 1994 outbreak??).

    …And about that picture you refer to…..how come nobody ever questions who the GUY in that picture is that is having unprotected sex with someone who is CLEARLY having a herpes outbreak? How many people did that GUY have sex with after that picture was taken,,,,how come nodocyever talks about that,(the goodl ole BOYS network at its finest)

    Gee, I don’t know, Billy…because Darren James was performing his JOB?? That he is dependent on doing that job for a paycheck?? Because, perhaps, he didn’t know that he had been infected with HIV at that time?? And, because even genital herpes, while highly contagious, is also very much treatable and often brings little or no symptoms other than sores??

    Finally…please note the date of the MMVR report: September 2005. Also, notice the editorial piece that follows the report, where it makes the usual claims about the failure of the “adult industry” to protect their workers and calls for tougher standards regarding bloodborne pathogen transmission. (Strangely enough, there is no mention of mandating condom usage here…although I suppose that that’s one of their principal planks.

    I understand you wanting to defend Lara Roxx, who has been through simply holy hell and did not ask to be infected with HIV. Neither did Darren James, or anyone else who ends up infected. But, your attacks on Ernest and AIM for thier supposed lack of protecting performers simply misses the mark, because not even the best and most preventative methods could have prevented this “outbreak” from occuring. As they say, sometimes stuff happens. But, even the report you use documents quickly how AIM not only fully cooperated with the authorities and followed all the protocol, but also worked to contain the outbreak solely those involved in that shoot…which is a major improvement to past outbreaks.

    AIM’s not perfect by any means..but in the absence of a better plan (and no, mandatory condom usage combined with a return to the old testing standards just isn’t it), I’ll still prefer them to any other plan going.

    Anthony

  15. billy says:

    Anthony,
    Reread the CDC report. The strains of HIV were IDENTICAL, not just similar, as you incorrectly state. The AIM testing system is like a piece of fine swill cheese, yes it’s good, but it is full of holes.
    This all to typical line of the adult industry that all of these stds occur off set is very misleading……..Any std contracted off set is then brought to the set by thie infected person. Just like the latest Patient zero,,,,she may have gotten HIV off set, but then she bought it to the set and exposed her coworkers to it,,,,,,,,,And what did the company that these employees were working for do for the people who were exposed on THEIR set,,,,did they pay for any testing,,,OF COURSE NOT…..What this comapny has done is violate the law by not reporting this exposure to HIV that CERTAINLY did occur in their workplace. THere is NO DEBATE about those workers being exposed to HIV on that set on June5. ANd the entire industy continues to keep that companies identity a secret from OSHA.

    Anthony, if somone is exposed to HIV on set, which is clearly the case in the last patient zero case, what responsibility do you think the employer should have to the people who were exposed? As you well know, the current industry protocol is for the employers to do absolutely nothing, and put all of the cost on the performers themselves. SO what do you thinkd the companies that expose their employees to HIV should do?

  16. billy says:

    And for the record,,,we all know what the industry did for the last three girls who got HIV in the workplace,,,,,,,ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

    • SHERLOCK says:

      What does the industry do when a performer does test positive for an std like chalmydia. Is it true that the performers pay for everything themselves, even the performes who got infected with HIV?

      • Ren says:

        Performers are OFTEN independent contractors….so, like many OTHER independent contractors in many OTHER fields they Do Not Have Company Provided Insurance…

        Like massive sections of the American Work Force.

    • Ren says:

      hey billy- you know, as a “girl” who does porn..ffs. don’t call the WOMEN in porn “girls”.

      Thanks-Owner and CEO of the Joint…

  17. billy says:

    The brooke Ashley workers comp suit was setteld in 2008…She was declared an employee. OSHA has aslo fined several companies over the years, and every single time their citations were upheld becuase the perfromers were employees. The employee vs. IC issue in the porn industry has been settled by the courts. They are employees,that debate is over.

    And to answer sherlocks question, the producers do NOTHING regarding the health and safety on their sets when it comes to any diseases,abosolutely nothing..ALL they do is require perfromers to pay for their own tests before the shoot, after that it is ‘so long’ deal with it yourself.

    I challenge anyone here to tell everyone what the industry does regarding stds besides requiring performers to pay for their own tests,,,other than that there is NOTHING to talk about.
    At AIM, performers pay for everything,,,how is that a charity that benefits the performers,,,the performers are the ones who fund AIM, it is the producers who benefit by not paying for these things themselves. ANY OTHER INDUSTRY that requires pre employment screening of any knid also requires that EMPLOYERS pay for any testing that they REEQUIRE.

  18. billy says:

    Sherlock,
    Regarding the ‘women’ who got HIV in 2004, the industry did NOTHING for them. They did somelittle fundraisers to help ‘out of work’ perfrormers, but for those individual girls they did virtualy NOTHING.

    ANy pro porn activists care to comment on this fact.

    • Ren says:

      Put the word Women in scare quotes one more fucking time and I will boot your ass from my goddamn blog- I hope that is clear, Billy. I make porn, I am 38 fucking years old, calling me or any other WOMAN over the age of 18 a girl does not fly here, hoss.

      Jenna Jameson and Nikki Hunter (one of whom is quite a big player in the industry) have BOTH set up fund raisers, foundations and trusts for other people in the industry with ALL KINDS of health problems, above and beyond HIV.

      And, Need I Remind ANYONE…the rate of HIV transmition amid porn performers is WAY lower than it is AMID THE GENERAL POPULACE of a great many of the major cities in the US- ALSO, NEED I REMIND ANYONE, porn performers are WARNED of the RISKS of being in porn before they sign contracts and whatnot.

      YOU can freakin’ rail on about AIM and whatever else you want to, Billy, but as a person who MAKES the stuff- I am REAL glad i can SEE peoples test results as varified by an organization like AIM.

      Oh, BTW? You ever made porn, Billy? If not, then maybe you should STFU for a few.

    • They’re not real women? Why? Because they’re positive? Because they did something you dislike?

      You’re a classy one, aren’t you?

  19. billy says:

    Ren,
    Are you aware that Erneste Greene has stated numcerous times that it is illegal to require HIV tests as a condition of employment,,,,that to even ask abbout a persons HIV status prior to employment is a civil rights violation?

    Ren, are you aware that the law requires employers to offer free testing and treatment is somone in their workplace if axposed to blood borne pahtogens(which happens on EVERY single porn set)

    Why should the porn industry be exempt from these laws that every other employer in the nation has to follow?

    This industry is all about CHOICE….And if you choose to be a porn PRODUCER then you should follow all the laws that go along wiht making that choice. If you choose to hire people to do a job that has inherent risks, then you should be responsible when those very forseeable inherent risks, that you hired someon to take, actually result in an injury. Yes, many jobs are dangerous, but when you hire someone to do those jobs you are required to provide a rememdy for those risks that you, as a producer, have made the CHOICE to do.

    Why should the producers not be held responsible for CHOOSING to be in an indusry with inherent risks. Nobody is forced to porduce porn,it is a choice. Prodecers WARN performers of the risk,,,as if that is sufficient to cover their legal responsibilities of what occurs int their workplace.

    And I am not raalying against AIM,,,,I am rallying against an industry that claims that making perfomers pay for their own tests is suffiecient to cover their legal responsibiliites.

    As I have asked befroe, aside from requiring performers to pay for their own tests,,,what does the “INDUSTRY’ do regarding std’s? It is a very simjple question. I say they do absolutely nothing. The Jenna, and Nicki funds, while admirable, are no more that an single drop of water in a full size pool .

    Funny how those who fight for freedom of speech are so quick to tell others to STFU when someone disagrees with them.

    Aside from requiring performs to pay for their own testing and treatment, what does the industry do for performers when ti comes to stds? I say they do NOTHING. If I am wrong, please tell me what they do!!!

    • Ren says:

      Billly my dear- My blog? It aint a democracy. You have freedom of speech in this Country…you can say whatever you want, even start your own blog and everything…. but I ain’t gotta put up with your shit here on mine, savvy? Did you oh, even bother to check The Rules…you know, they have their own little section Right Up There at the TOP.

      And gee, yeah, I know Ernest, think he’s a stand up guy, thanks.

      and guess what, grok this if you can…as a gal who does porn, this is me saying Hey, Dude, I so don’t need you saving me from shit or looking out for my interests or any of that other shit. As for paying for my own tests, you know, way back in High School I had to sign wavers to play sports, and pay for my own physicals before I could play….OMG, stop High School Sports NOW!!!!

      • billy says:

        You wernt being paid to play sports in high school.

        What you do in your PRIVATE life is of no concern to me. What is done in the workplace is a different matter….Right now Brooke Ashley is collecting tax payers money becuase the company she was an employee by did not have the proper workers comp insurance.

        The adult industry’s constant comaprisons to private, non work activitiy is a red herring.

        Theses are workplaces, taxes are paid, and epmployers have certain resposnsibilities.

        Why is the porn industry so afraid of following simple workplace regulations?

        ANd yes, many other pccupations are dangerous, and result in people getting injured, sometimes even killed. But the differnce is,,,those occupations offer remedies to their employees when those things happen.

        If a nurse works with ill people and as a result gets ill herself, does the hopsital say,,”Sorry MS. Nurse, you knew the risks when you took the job so it your problem.”

        But in porn, like in 2004,,,TTBOY hires an HIV+ performer, who then infects three other performers, and TTBOY says…”Too bad for you, not my problem”…Then he realeases the scenes and makes money off of them…..Now please keep telling me how well this industry is “regulated”

        • Ren says:

          “You wernt being paid to play sports in high school.”

          Heh. Hehehehe, you know jack and shit about sports, even in high school, and how shit like that works in the South, don’t you? It might as well BE a profession!…be that as it may….

          If I am an independent worker who, oh, does roofing, and I am injured, it is entirely possible I would end up paying for my own medical care, if I am a freelance reporter and I get hurt chasing down a story- whomever I was doing that story is under NO obligation to see to my bills. Not in my state anyway, not in most of this side of the country, so…what again? Professional sports organizations- if a player is injured, the team can cut them and give them nothing….at all.

          And do you realize how many people OUTSIDE of the porn inudstry in this country have crappy if any insurance at all?

          This is really not a unique to porn problem.

          • billy says:

            If you are an idnependatnroofer part of your contracors licesnse requires you to have insurance….IF you hire an unlicensed contractor to work on your roof and he gets hurt he sues you and your home ownders insurance….LOL Another meaningles comparison of apples to oranges.

            You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT,,independatn contractors heave no recouse against those they contract with……again, you completelymiss the point,,,,porn perfromers are NOT INDEPENDANT CONTRACTORS, they are employees,,,and that has alreadybeen established by the courts in california,,,,,,,why do you keep making comparisons to independant contracors.

            As far as empolyee, v IC,,,,,,,,you are always considered an emplyee first, unless it can be shown that you are an IC…….IF someone tells you where to be, when to be there, directly supervises your work,provides the mechanisms necessary to do the work(camers lights etc)then you are an employee, ANDthe courts have already ruled on that.

            • Ren says:

              IN CALIFORNIA,

              WHICH IS NOT THE ONLY PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE PORN IS MADE.

              The Majority of People in Porn are not Contracted Performers associated with a production company, I’d even argue that the majority of people in porn are not in California!

              • billy says:

                California and New hampshire are the only states that have specific laws (court decisions) where filimg porn is legal,,,,,and the VAST VAST majorityof porn in the United States is indeed filmed in calfornia,,,there is no debate about this,,,and the VAST majority of people who test at AIM are in california.

                Regardin the rest of the world,,,,let them do what they want,,,,,,Here, we have laws, and laws are supposed to be folowed. Like I have said before, I will be the first to admit that the industry has gotten away with ignoring the law for decades, that still doesnt make it right.

                FACT,,,,every single time a porn company in California has been ‘caled on’ these lasws,,OSHA, Workers Comp, Fair employment,,,,the industry has LOST,,EVERY SINGLE TIME,,,(and i am not talking about obscentiy, but employment laws) EVERY SINGL TIME.

                It like speeders on the freeway,,,everybody does it, but when youre the unlucky one who gets pulled over you dont get to use the ‘everyone’s doing defense” You get found guilty and pay the price,,,,,,,Ask TTBOY,,,the 2004 indcedent set the precedent.

                That argument of yours that most are not in California, I think you would loose that argument.

                • Ren says:

                  True: Cali is far and away the most REGULATED place on earth when it comes to porn. I do not happen to work in CA. And anyone watching will see that FL is blowing the hell up as far as porn as concerned and really fairly close to becoming the next CA as far as porn is concerned. Hell, for that matter, NY, NY, PA and why yes, MD all have a fair amount of porn flowing out of them, not to mention oh, GERMANY and the Czech Republic.

                  Dude, the world does not begin and end with California!

  20. billy says:

    And somehow PERFORMERS starting their own organizations to assist other performers is supposed to make the industry look good……. How abou some PRODUCERS putting up some money to help al those performers with ALL KINDS of health problems(as YOU state) above and beyond HIV? Again, the performers are the ONLY ones doing anything,,,,,producers(employers) do NOTHING…Ama I wrong about this?

    Jenna started her fund because NOBODY else was doing anything.

    • Ren says:

      and she is also, oh, one of the biggest name in porn, performer and producer and owner and…everything else….Ever.

      Here’s an idea…if you’re so concerned, why not put your money up and start one yourself, eh?

      • billy says:

        Here’s an idea,,,why dont the PRODUCERS donate 1/10th of one percent of the money they earn to AIM,,,,AIMS TOTAL budget last year was just over 2 million,,,,dont you think this multibillion dollar industry coud fork over a measly 2 mil for performer safety,,,ow wait, who am i kidding here?

        IF the porn industry was just a ONE BILLION dollar industry, they could totally fund AIM by donating 1/10th of one percent of their profits.

        Get that …..1/10th of one percent,,but they dont even do that. Whata joke!!!

        ANd in 1998 Marc Wallice knowingly forged his HIV tests,,,,,he still works for a porn company. Yeah right, a self policing industry.

        • Oh, let me get this straight, Billy…..you slam AIM-MED and Ernest Greene as an enabler of evil porn producers, and all but indict and convict them of deliberately hiring Darren James to deliberately infect Lara Roxx and others…but you suggest that those same producers donate nearly their entire salaries to “help former performers” by funding that same company??

          Either AIM should be funded or they shoud be replaced. Can’t have it both ways, my man.

          Anthony

          • billy says:

            What do you mean ‘testing pays for testing” and ‘treatment pays for treatment?”

            At AIM it is PERFORMERS pay for testing, and PERFORMERS pay for treatment?

            How is that a benefit for performers? Performers pay, oh excuse me, make a donation, for everything at AIM. If a performer walks in the door with no money, they get no test,unlessthey bring proof of inabitlty to pay,,,like a “turn off” notice for their power.

            Talent Testing Sevice provides the exact same tests(pcr) and MORE, for LESS than what AIM charges,,oh excuse me again, less than the required DONATION at AIM.

            And AIMS own quarentine list shows that performes were still testing negative onthe PCR test after 14 days…why does everyone kep talking about detectin in ten days……..A minimum of ten days is the ‘eclipse” period for PCR,,,,,,,6 months is the maximun for elisa…….

            Not to be techinical, but the term ‘eclipse’ is the ppoper term for pcr testing.

            Perhaps this article should be titled,,, “More Experts on Medical Testing”

            • Ren says:

              Only you see, that is NOT what the original post was about- the hijacking to a thread about Testing and AIM? Not at ALL related to the orignal post, so no, the title need NOT be changed, thank you.

          • billy says:

            Another typical response,,,,,I HAVE NEVER, REPEAT NEVER accused any company of deliberately hiring an HIV+ person to deliberatly infect someone else. That is the EXACT SAME type of argument that you accuse Lubben of using…..Utter and complete baloney.

            I indict the industry for their blantantly dangerous practices….

            YES AIM should be funded,,,,,,by the people making the profit off of the performance in which people are required to take risks,,,,,,,

            Porn is risky, we all know that…….And if you hire someone to take that risk, then you should be responsible for the consequences of those risks that YOU HIRE someone to take. This has nothing todo with your private life.

            IF a cop gets shot, d you say, too bad Mr. Oficer you knew the risk?
            If an assembly line worker gets his hand cut off do you say,,”To bad, you knew the machine was dangerous?

            IF a bus driver gets injured in an accident do you say, “To bad, you knew that you might get into an accident?

            But if a porn worker gets HIV the porn industry says,,,,,,,,too bad, youre history, deal with it yourself,,,and then we release your scenes and make money off it.

        • Ren says:

          Nice attempt at a deflection. I’m in porn, I have medical bills, wanna send me a check? I don’t expect one from you any more than I expect one from a porn production company.

  21. billy says:

    And Ren,
    Have you ever worked in the healthcare field? How come so many porners are so quick to tell non porners to keep their comments to themselves. but have no problem commenting on industries that they themselves are not affiliated with in any way.

    Until you have worked in the health care industry and dealt with the long term consequences of the MUTLITPE exposures to dangerous STD’s that CERTAINLY do occur in the porn industry , perhaps you should ST,,,,,,,,sorry, I wont be as rude to you as you were to me.

    Funny how many health experts there are in the porn industry.

    • Billy:

      Seeing your comments popping up my mailbox, so I decided to respond even though this is very old thread.

      A little transparency here would be a good thing. Basically, are you in the public health field, or represent a group like AIDS Healthcare?

      It seems like on one level you say you want what’s best for porn performers, but seem to have a lot of hostility to porn performers having a say in it, especially if it conflicts with any program laid out by designated “experts” in the sexual health field. That would imply that you prefer a more paternalistic approach. Again, some clarification here would be helpful.

    • Ren says:

      I worked in an M.E.’s office once, but seeing as those folks are already dead, aside from basic first aid and a life guard test, nah, I am no medical expert…

      Difference here is, I am not telling medical care professionals how to do their damn jobs or how they should run their organizations or dragging out a bunch of their fuck ups…which why yes, do exist.

      And lest you forget, this is my blog, I can be as freakin’ rude as I want- you’re the person who is choosing to comment here. IF you were to make a post on the life and times of a medical worker, saying how you wish others who did not work in medicine would oh, listen to those who do, I seriously doubt I would barge in your door and leave a shit ton of comments and act like an imperious asshole.

      Imagine that?

      • billy says:

        Again, the typical porn apoligist response,,,,,ignore the message and attack the messanger. It isnt my fault that the posrn industry ignores the law,,,,,,The law clearly ststes,as ERNEST GREENE himself has admitted, IT is illegal to REQUIRE and HIV test as aconditionof emplyoyment,,,Those are ENEST GREENE”S own words, I am quoting HIM.

        The law also states that whenever an eomployee is exposed to a blood borne pathogen, and this happens EVERYDAY in porn WORKPLACES, that the employer must pay for testing and treatment if necessary. If you dont like the law fine, tryto change it.

        Why is everyone so afraid of having producers pay for testing?

        AND still, nobody has answered the simple question, and nobody ever will,, What does the porn industry, aside form having TALENT PAY FOR EVERYTHING, do regarding std’s in porn? I say nothing,,,,,,Anyone else here have a differnt opinion.

        • Ren says:

          I’d say it depends on the producer, actually. However, you are looking at and discussing only Porn Made In Cali. There are porn producers outside of Cali who play by different rules in a great many ways, including working with condoms, so on, so forth.

          I think it would be keen if producers paid for testing, but hey, I am not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

          • billy says:

            So Ren,
            I guess you would not agree with the PHD. ladyfrom the last OSHA heaing who said her study shows that 98% of all porn companies follow the AIM protocol….And Ernest Greene has also referenced this lady’s study in his own writings,,,,so kind of looks like either this lady is mistaken, and youre correct about others not playing by the “AIM rules”, or this lady’s ‘study’ was , well baloney.

            • Ren says:

              I havent read her study, so I cannot say.

              • billy says:

                Can you comment on the public statement that she made, and that Ernest greene has referenced in his own writing that 98% of all porn companies follow the “AIM PROTOCOL”.

                I have read it and I will comment on it……..That is total baloney, considering how many performers test at Talent Testing Sevice, that alone blows this whole claim out of the water. And Ernest greene cites this as proof of how effective the AIM program is

                • Ren says:

                  people can test other places and still be in line with the AIM protocal, the two are not mutually exclusive.

                  And I rarely trust public statements out of anyone.

    • Oh, really….so people in porn don’t have sex outside of their professions, right??

      Because, Billy, as much as you think that it’s the porn industry that creates STD’s out of thin air, people outside of the porn industry have been infected with STD’s long before there ever was a “porn industry”….and that will remain the case even if mandatory condom usage is the law.

      Also….implying that only porn performers are exposed to “multiple exposures to dangerous STD’s (i’e., that they are simply out-of-control promisciuous sluts who screw anything that moves) is highly questionable, if not simply inflammatory.

      Oh..and telling a female sex worker who has actually made movies independently that she should have no say whatsoever in her profession and implying that she should STFU and just accept the “wisdom” of your “expertese” based on…well, your ability to rant and rave profusely…that’s the quickest way to get your ass booted from her space.

      Or…just go ahead and dig yourself a deeper hole. Doesn’t bother me any.

      Anthony

      • billy says:

        Anthony, of course porn workers have sex outside the industry. Then, just like you said, they bring it to the WORKPLACE and expose there fellow workers to it. Some performers do dangerous drugs, and use needles, and they too then bring that to the set and expose their fellow workers to it.

        ANd people outside the industry of course get stds. But they are not being paid by a third party to engage in risky behavior for the purpose of making a profit off of those risky acts, are they?

        ANd when did I ever say that ONLY porn performers are exposed multiple time. Many promiscous poeple in their private lives expose themselves all the time……….

        Maybe I am reading you wrong,,,,but are you denying that porn performers are exposed multiple times?

        Recently Christian Mann wrote that he has got GONN?CHLAM “five or six” times in his career. Chiristian is a very active performer,,,,,,how many people whould you estimate that he himself exposed to those stds that he admits to having. he could test one day, get infected the nest, and work for 25 more days with that std, therefore exposing every person he ahad contact with.

        If Christain had goon/chlam 5 times like he said, how many people did he INFECT with those stds? OF course we can never know the true number, but I would bet my bottom dollar that number isnt ZERO.

  22. billy says:

    Any “sexual health EXPERT’ will tellyou that unprotected sex with a sex worker, who has had multiple partners, all unprotected, would be foolish to not use condoms. How these “industry health experts” can, with a straight face, tupnrotectedsex with a professional sex worker is safer than your average sexual experience is ridiculous.

    As far as perromers having a say,,,,,,it has been well established toat to say you want to use condoms means that you dont get work. Employees in other fields dont get to pick and choose which regulations they follow.

    If you go to the hospital, should the nurse have a chioce of wheter or not to wear gloves when she is doing a procedure on you?

    I find your reaponse to be all too typical of the adult industry,,,,,ignore the substance of the post, and question the motives of the poster while ignoring the points he is makink

    AGAIN, aside from REQUIRING performers to pay for everything themselves, what does the industry do when it comes to stds. By industry I mean producers(VIVID HUSTLER ZERO TOLERANCE RED LIGHT DISTRICT ETC) AGAIN, I say they do nothing,,,,IF ia am wrong about this poleas give us the facts.

    • Ren says:

      Billy: Fact- Washington DC, USA 3% of the city’s population has HIV or AIDS. This places DC at epidemic status. 3% of the people working in porn DO NOT have HIV or AIDS…so right down the road from me? Hell yes, I would be far safer having unprotected sex with a professional sex worker than I would be with, well, Joe Smith from DC.

      • billy says:

        Except those people in D.C. are not being paid by a thid party to have sex with eachother.

        Fact,,,over 3000 porn perfromers have tested postive for std;ssince 2004,,,,,,,

        FACT….AIM does NOT test for oral or anal stds. They only do a urine test witCH is 100% usleless to detect gonn/chlam in the anus or throat,,,,,and wiht all the anal and oral sex wouldnt you agree that it is ridiculous that they dont test for this, or even more son, KEEP STATISTCS about this……There is one reasson, and one reason only that AIM doesnt test for anal and throat stds…..and that is becuase the nyumbers would be STAGGERING.

        Are you going to try to tell everyone that this is not a total joke,,,,they DONT EVEN TEST FOR ORAL AND ANAL STD’S. on a regular basis. This is a joke

        FACT..Gonn/chlam can and does remain UNSTMPTOMATIC in the anut and throat,,,,and the long term consequences of these diseases going undetected are very serious.

        FACT..These diseases remain undetected becuase aTHEY DONT TEST FOR IT!!!!!!

        Do you think there should be regular testing for oral and anal stds? The acutl industry thindks the answer is NO,,,,how abour you?

        • Ren says:

          No. I do not think it should be mandatory…if a performer requests those tests, they should get them (and I won’t even say for free).

          Feel free to throw bricks at my head.

  23. billy says:

    I HAVE MADE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE.

    I completely forgot to mention that Bill Margold gave Lara Roxx a teddy bear the day after she was diagnosed HIV+……….SO , aside from giving teddy bears to infected performers, what else does the industry do for diseases performers,,,,,,,,,,And dont say AIM does anything,,,,,AIM is funded by the PERFORMERS, the companies donate less than 2% of all their money, according to AIM’s own public records.

  24. billy says:

    Ren,
    You are correct. The debate is over in california(PERIOD)…no ‘perhaps’ about it. The rest of the world can do what they want,,,,,,,here in calfornia there are laws that are supposed to be followed, and I will be the first to admit that the porn industry has gotten away with ignoring these laws for decades, but that doesnt make it right.

    In 2004 AIM printed the infamous ‘quarantine list’ for the whole world to see on the internet. As a result of doing that,(to make a long story short), OSHA was able to identify the company that employed these individual where the HIV transmissions did certaily accur. That company was fined, appealed the fines, LOST that appeal, and paid those fines, and then subsequently left the sate of california. …….Take special note that there was no URGENT need for AIM to protect all of those peoples identity on that Q-List.

    Fast forward to last year,,,,patient zero tests positive,,,,,then the rumor mill goes into full swing and next thing you know it is public knowledge that someone has tested positive. NO PUBLIC SATATEMENT FROM AIM THIS TIME,,,,All of the sudden AIM now is concerned woth the patients privacy….(no such concern in 2004),,,,,,and becuase they remain quiet, OSHA cant figure out who the employer was

    Now, here we have a case where there is no doubt whatsoever that the performers on JUNE5, were exposed to HIV,,,,Dr. Hamblin from AIM even stated he does not know why this person worked on June 5…………This company is required by saw to reprt an exposure to HIV in the workplace, but they havent done that. I guesss the DEVIL is in the details.

    Should this porn company not have to follwo the same laws regarding their employee being exposed to HIV inthe workplace?

    • Ren says:

      Well, I am not in CA, so I cannot say I follow your news as closely as I folllow, oh, my own?

      If a company knowingly hired a performer with HIV, there should be reprocussions for that.

      • billy says:

        Should HIV tests be mandatory? Hepatitis C? Staph?

        Where do YOU draw the line?

        • billy says:

          We all know that there are NEVER any repercussions for anything in the porn biz,,,,we just say a proven mutliple time test forger win a best director award less than six months after getting coaught redhanded for the THIRD time.

          SO, you say there should be repercusions,,,what do you suggests?

        • Ren says:

          I think all STD’s/STI’s should be tested for. I’m paranoid like that.

          If, once again, I ruled the world and a producer knowingly hired a person with a Life Threatening Disease (HIV comes to mind) and that person infected others, well, I would decree that said producer should eat the bills on for those whom had been infected- but I am draconian like that.

          • billy says:

            I AGREE with your above statement,,,,too bad every time this has happend in the industry the producers have paid ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. TOo bad Ernest Greene doesnt agree with you on that one.

            Should all stds include oral and anal tests,,,,,REALLY, what is the pupose of monthly testing inthe porn industry if you dont test for oral and anal stds,,,,,considering almost ALL porn contains oral and or anal sex.

            • Ren says:

              Ernest is not Required to agree with me on anything- I can like and respect people who do not see everything as I do- amazing that.

              And I already addressed the idea of mandatory oral/anal tests. I don’t think they should be mandatory, but given if requested (and by given I mean administered- not necessarily given away freely)

  25. billy says:

    Thank you Ren, I agree there should be reprocussions,,,,,but in a ‘self’regulated’ industry, that means everybody reulates themselves,,,,,,which actually means NOBODY regulates anything.

    There was recently a case where a veteran performer of many years was released from a contract after getting caught redhanded THREE times FORGING stdt ests. frorperformers on his shoot. ANd the only reason this became public was becuase MIKE SOUTH wrote about it on his blog. The original statement from the company said they had ‘creative’ differences. They didnt come clean until called out by Mike South,,,,,,,,,,and NOTHING happened to the perfromers who actually faked the tests, actually, their names were never mentioned,,,,,but then the comapny said they are no longer working in the industry, problem is, nobody ever knew who they were, so we’re just supposed to believe them about this. LOL

    The most disturbing thing about this incedent was this was John Stagliano’s company. You would think that an HIV+ person would have a ONE STRIKE and youre out policy regarding the FORGING of std tests,,,,,,,and nobody ever heard of the first two times he was caught, but hey, his titles sold well, so they just let it slide. ANd just two weeks ago,,,,this person who was forging tests won an URBAN X award for best producer,,,,,,,,So much for this self pokicing industry,,,,,forge HIV tests and then win awards, What a joke!!!

    Self regulation means NO regulation,,,,,,,there is NOTHING in place in this industry to hold anybody accoutnaqble for anything,,,and by nothing, I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

  26. billy says:

    Ren,
    Just for the heck of it,,,,,what type of repercussions do you think their should be? Should that company pay for the tests of the people who were exposed on that set? Fortunately, those people didnt get infected, but they were having unprotected sex.

    Becuase what happened is AIM provided the tests “free of charge” to the performers. But what that actually means is AIM used the money from ohter performers to pay for the tests. See, it is the PRODUCERS who benefit from the AIM “charity.” The performers fund AIM, that way producers dont have to pay for testing. The industry cant say that perfromers benefit from AIM,,,performers PAY for everything they get fromAIM. The producers get the free ride. ANd AIM does not medicate you when you get an std,,,they write you aprescription, and you go to the phamacy and pay for it YOURSELF.

    • Ren says:

      if I ruled the world (which we are all so thankful will never happen) I would decree the company pay for tests for all the performers who came in contact with an infected person on their set….any further action by me would be subject to what disease was contracted.

  27. billy says:

    Ren,
    You have said that you are a female performer.
    I urge you to get and oral and anal swab done to chekc for gonn/chlam….That urine test that the industry does is worthless to detect stds in these regions. You need to have them swab those areas thouroghly. Gonn/chlam remains unsympromatic in these areas, you wont even know if you have it.

    Regarless if we agree or disagree here,,,,please get those tests done.

    • Ren says:

      Billy- if you bothered to read anything other than THIS entry, you’d know I’ve seen so many damn doctors in the last 2+ years if I had so much as a damn ingrown toe nail, a test would’ve been done on it.

      • You win the thread. 🙂

        Not that you weren’t doing so already, but… you do. 🙂

        • Ren says:

          hehehhe, people should not come into my house unarmed, you know?? Knowledge is power and all that shit 🙂

          • billy says:

            Pat youself on the back,,,,,but still,,NOBODY HAS THE GUTS TO ANSWER THE SIMPL SIMPLE QUESTION…

            Aside from making performers pay for everything themselves(lol) what does the industry do regarding HIV and stds……..I say they do absolutely nothing. Anybody care to take a shot at this simple question? OF COURSE NOT LOL

            • Ren says:

              Please- you care to take a shot at any of the issues brought up in my Original Entry- my guess is no. You’d rather derail with your own pet topic even though THAT topic is not the subject of the goddamn post!!!

              And YOU are only willing to look at California, when it is NOT the only place where porn is made.

              By no means in the porn industry perfect, and yes, absoultely, there are greedy assholes working in it who do not give a shit for the people who are performing- this is news to no one around here. However, they DID willing shut down for testing and clearing with prior HIV incidents, they do encourage even demand STD testing, and do make it,,,dare I say,,,affordable to people who probably do not have outside insurance.

              Lest we forget, porn is a business, not a charity…

              Now, care to dicuss anything other than your OWN personal peeve with the porn industry…you know, as I suspect you are not actually IN it?

              • billy says:

                Make it affordable,,,,you are seriuolsy misinformed,,,,You can get the same AIM tests,,,,,HIV,,GONN/CHLAM plus a hepatitis C test at Talent testing Service for LESS than AIM.

                And YES, porn is a business, and as such there are laws to follow. YOU say they ‘demand’ STD testing, but they also DEMAND that you pay for it. The carity part,,,where do I start,

                Performers pay for anything they get from AIM, the same price they would pay anywhere else. The producers demand these tests, and DEMAND that you go to their specidied clinic. SHO benefits from this charity,,,certainly not the performers,,,the performers PAY for everything…..It is the producers who benefit from this charity, by getting access(illegal) to EVERYONES results, and producers dont have to apy for the tests that they demand.

                AIM is a 501c3 non-profit charity…….Please tell me who benefits from this charity if not the PRODUCERS. (remember, performers get nothing from AIM that they dont pay for with cash.)

                And your suspiciouns would be wrong.

                • Ren says:

                  If I go to an AIM clinic (yes, they exist outside Ca), I pay HALF of what I would pay my private doctor- so yeah, more affordable.

                  Oh, how are you invovled in Porn, Billy- Throw your bones.

              • billy says:

                And even if you had your own insurance you cant use it a AIM. AIM is a nonprofit,,,you cannot bill an insurance company for a DONATION to a non profit clinic……..

                (Plus there is no insurance policy in the world thatw ill pay for an HIV test every month)

              • billy says:

                REALLY, they shut down for testing????
                Look up the movie “firebush 5” from Platinum X……..Filmed right smack dab in the middle of the industryshut down with three male performers on the quarentine list,,,,,give me an effing break!!! Lets see you justify this!!!!

  28. ernest Greene says:

    Fuck, I knew I should have resisted the strange impulse that made me read this. So much bullshit. So little time.

    Okay, just the important stuff, because “Billy” mainly just repeats himself, spouting various iterations of the Pink Cross/AHF line mixed in with some crap from some gossip sites and thus declares himself an expert. Such individuals deserve to be ignored as they generally are.

    However, just to clarify a couple of points that do matter:

    I have, of course, read the CDC report and it’s subject to more than one interpretation. What I refuse to do is speculate regarding events the order of which cannot be conclusively established by scientific means, which is the problem with attempting to pin the “Patient Zero” label on anyone in a transmission event involving more than two individuals during a short interval. I have my own opinion as to what came from whom, but that’s just what it is, an opinion, and given the gravity of the matter where the Lara Roxx case is concerned, I’m not going to give up that opinion for all the world to read. I have suggested that a more skeptical reading of partisan accounts of this situation would be more constructive than attempting to use it for political purposes. Evidently some people don’t like that. Don’t care.

    It is indeed the law here and in most states that potential employees cannot legally be required to test for HIV or disclose their HIV status as a condition of employment. I will share my opinion of that, which is that regulations should be appropriate to the risks of the industries they regulate. That, BTW, is also the law here in California, though Cal-OSHA in its infinite wisdom has chosen to ignore that law by attempting to force standards crafted for the health care industry on the sex industry. I suppose Billy favors goggles too.

    In my opinion, no one who is HIV positive should be working as a porn performer, with or without barrier protections of any kind because porn performers, unlike health care workers, have sex with each other for a living. The chilling implication of Billy’s comments would seem to be that it would be better to have no testing, even if the result is more infections, than to have performer-funded testing. That is a rather peculiar logic unless one buys AHF’s argument that if barriers were required by law, testing would be irrelevant. The fact that barriers can and do regularly fail in civilian life, much less in porn, should be reason enough to insist on testing of those who fuck for a living.

    Which leads back to the far from settled (as Billy implies) question of whether or not performers are employees. Case law so far has been inconclusive on that, as Cal-OSHA’s case against AIM, brought in an attempt to access AIM’s client records was tossed out of Judge Winifred Smith’s courtroom in Oakland on the grounds that AIIM’s clients were NOT employees and thus that Cal-OSHA lacked standing to demand access to records of private individuals not covered under its enabling legislation.

    In other cases, including that of Brooke Ashley, Billy is correct as the proverbial blind squirrel. There have been rulings that hold porn performers to be employees. There will, I believe, ultimately be litigation in higher courts regarding this question, the outcome of which is impossible to predict. If porn performers are, at the end of the day, ruled to be employees, I would hope some exception in the state’s anti-discrimination laws to preserve required performer testing as a matter of obvious good sense and simple decency. No performer should be denied work as a result of wanting to work with condoms (I’ve said this about a million times but somehow whenever some fool comes by to drag my name around this never gets mentioned) or for insisting on working with an HIV negative partner. If that can be made to happen, I have no issue at all with idea of performers being classed as employees.

    Funding for testing should always have been paid for out of a fund created and maintained by production companies. Life at AIM would have been a whole lot easier if this had been the case, but once again, when the alternative is no testing, performer paid testing has to do. When AIM was founded, it cost nearly $300 for an individual to get a PCR-DNA test. By promising the processing labs a substantial number of tests per month, AIM was able to negotiate a price two thirds below that offered through any other source. Perfect? No. Better than having the price three times higher? I think most performers would agree that it is. While other clinics may now be able to offer similar services at competitive prices is a result of pricing created by AIM’s demonstration over a ten year period that labs could profitably process tests at the current ticket.

    Because AIM takes no mark-up at all on testing of all types (we’ll get to what types AIM offers in a minute), testing merely pays for itself. It does not pay for maintaining clinics, staffing them, paying the rent and all the other expenses that come with providing the services it does.

    So who pays those expenses? Oddly enough, most of the money for non-testing-related expenses comes from producer contributions. That’s right. Those evil, uncaring mega-billion-dollar porn companies (yeah, right) make substantial contributions to AIM on a regular basis. Do all pay their fair share? Nope. Do some pay more than their share? Absolutely. Are those who donate necessarily motivated by concern for the health of performers rather than the possible consequences to the industry in which they make their money should AIM fail? I suspect it depends on who we’re talking about. Since AIM’s biggest contributors generally prefer to remain anonymous, they’re certainly not giving AIM money for PR purposes.

    The minimum eclipse period for the PCR-DNA test has not been conclusively established. It has been known to detect infections within 48 hours but can indeed take as long as two weeks at the outer edge to do so. The current working assumption among medical professionals, including those at the CDC (which still considers the ELISA the gold standard because, by virtue of being anti-body based it cannot ever throw a false negative, though its eclipse period can be as long as six months), is that the PCR-DNA test is 95% accurate at ten days. I’d love to say it’s a hundred percent, but it isn’t. There is a margin of error in any test and when you factor in response time, 95% at ten days looks a lot better than 0% at ten days, which is what the ELISA offers in the way of odds.

    Testing for other STDs: AIM offers testing for virtually all communicable diseases at cost on request. However, a full panel for everything from herpes to hep C fails any cost-benefit analysis when performed repeatedly on the same population. The judgment call, which is subject to debate and always will be, was to go with the most dangerous diseases and the most common infections as the minimum standard with other tests offered as needed.

    Legality of disclosure: AIM offers the same tests to the general public that it offers to porn performers. Porn performers, however, sign a very carefully written waiver fully conforming to state and federal law that waives medical confidentiality in order to make their test results available to producers. This isn’t merely a matter of convenience to producers. It’s a community alarm system that enables real-time access to information regarding the current testing status of performers before sending them out onto the set.

    No, the system is not perfect. It has, however, resulted in the prevention of countless disease transmissions that would otherwise of have occurred since it was created. Those now busily attempting to tear it apart have nothing better to put in its place and they know it. They’re the ones gambling with performers’ health and all the righteous indignation flung in our direction should really be lobbed at them.

    Meantime, Billy, I may not know what I’m talking about, but I do know that Christian Mann is the sales manager at Evil Angel and Christian XXX is a porn performer.

    Let’s start with getting people’s names right and see if we can produce any other facts from that baseline.

  29. ernest Greene says:

    Oh, and Ren, thanks for calling me a stand-up guy. It’s a refreshing change from the things I’m more frequently called.

    Now, I’ll be on my way. If anyone cares to take a few shots at my departing back, they’re welcome to do so, because I won’t be returning to read them anytime soon.

  30. billy says:

    AIM does testing “AT COST” AIM pays $50.00 for the HIV PCR test and 25.oo for the gonnoreah and chlamydia test.(according to AVN) But performers pay 130.00.(excuse me,,DONATE 130.00)

    How exactly is that ‘AT COST’ to the performers?

    Accordint to AIM’s own 501cs tax filings,,,,,of the total of 2.26 million dollars that AIM recieved 2.02 million was from “Program Services Revenue” that is,,,performers paying for their own tests. Thisis a matter of public record.

    The production comapies donated less than 1% of AIM’s total revenue,,,,and 95% of that one percent was the ‘donation’ to get a password for results. These donations are listed under ‘Contributions and Grants’ $187,000.oo Less than 1% and Ernest Greene calls that significant.

    And what did AIM do when it was proven that producer Brian Pumper was FORGING AIM tests last year,,,,,,AIM never even made a single public statement, and did not notify one single law enforcement agency when they were 100% completelyaware that this man was forging AIM tests. I guess thats what they mean by self policing,,,which actaully means, no policing. YOU can forge AIM tests and they will not say one single thing about it,,,,,this has been PRoVEN by their own inaction in this last case. SO Ernie, what did AIM do about these forged tests?

    But hey in porn, I guess one percent is a significant contribution.

  31. billy says:

    And that CDC report says,,,,,,,,’The strians were IDENTICAL””””’and supports the male index patient as the source of the infection of the other patients,,,,,how else do you interpret that?

    And yes AIM aoffers the same tests to non industry workers,,,,BUT AT A HIGHER PRICE!!!!!!!!!

    And as you well know Ernest,,,the waiver falls very short of being legal,,,,,,why else would AIM pay Darren James a xsix figure out of court setllement after his diagnosis…….Any waiver, in order to be legal must include the specific name of the person to whom the results are being given…The AIM waiver does not do this,,,and there is NOTHING in the HIPPA statutes that says….’EXCEPT FOR THE PORN INDUSTRY’

    ERnie, does the AIM waiver contain specific names? No it does not.

    Does AIM exercise any kind of control over who uses those pasowrds, that get passed around like joints at a Bob Marley concert?

    Does AIM keep any record of any kind of who accesses those results, and where theyare accessed from? (of course not)

    Is there anything to stop any passowrd holder from giving that passowrd to anybody they want to?

    How does giving passowrds to multiple entities jive with the AIM waiver that says LIMITED DISCLOSURE..?

  32. No monkey says:

    Here is another simple question that ernest greene will NEVER answer,,,

    How may total individual performers ddi AIM test last year? Not how many tests did AIM do, but how many individual performers!!!!!

    Do any of the ‘porn industry experts’ here have any clue as to why Ernest has never answered this quetion, and do you know why they alsways talk about the total number of tests they do, as opposed to the total number of performers?

    I bet that nobody here has a clue as to the answers to these questions. Will anybody prove me wrong?

  33. Ren says:

    ATTENTION ASSHOLES WHO CAN NOT EVEN ABIDE BY THE VERY SIMPLE AND BASIC RULES OF THIS BLOG:

    HERE, IN THIS SPACE, ERNEST IS NOT OBLIGATED TO ANSWER, TALK TO, OR DEAL WITH ANY OF YOU.

    ALSO, NOT ERNEST’S BLOG, SO DON’T EXPECT HIM TO READ EVERY WORD YOU TYPE.

    OH, AND FYI, THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED AND ALL FURTHER COMMENTS BY EITHER OF YOU, ANYHWERE, HERE, UNLESS ON TOPIC AND UNTIL YOU ANSWER QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU WILL NOT BE PUBLISHED.

    THE END.

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