Problems with being a skeptic…

Posted: October 29, 2009 in Pornography

I have said before here that like Agent Mulder, I want to believe.


Today I want to, but I am feeling skeptical.   Its one of those things where in context and all, before I take someone at face value and such, I really want some back up, some proof.  I want names named and all.  The where and when and whatnot is over on the current porn threads previously mentioned.  A woman, I presume, has shown up and said she did porn.  Okay, I believe her.  She mentions how she was repeatedly abused while doing so.  Okay, considering how any jerk with a camera can make porn these days I believe that too.  She mentions being locked up, held down, raped repeatedly, and how if she spoke out about it, she was just attacked again-and how all of this happened to her in the mainstream legal porn industry.

Which is where the skeptic comes in.  Its not that I don’t want to or even don’t believe her- but I have some serious questions.  The CA porn industry (which, sorry, is THE legal mainstream industry), what companies?  What producers? Film or Net? Who was responsible for or allowed this  treatement of her?  Who did it?  The reason being if this did happen in mainstream legal porn, well shit, that needs to be called out in order to put a stop to it post haste.  Names need to be named so that other women do not go in to work for these people.  And the argument she makes about how if you are not famous and you say anything you will never work again or will get harmed….well, that may be true for some people at some point- but if you are no longer doing porn…and oddly enough, not famous little old me, I am pretty sure that a great many of the people I know involved in porn, if I were to go to them and say “You know, Director X locked me up, held me down, allowed me to be raped”….they would be all over that bastard like flies on shit because people like him are not only animals- but bad for business. 

So yeah, my initial response is to believe a woman when she says “I was”.  The “mainstream-legal” industry thing complete reared by skeptic gene.  I’m not even now saying I don’t believe, but I need to know more.  Not because I think she is lying about her treatment, persay, but to know if she actually means Mainstream Legal rather than some asshole with a camera. 

And I sure as hell want to ask, but I know I would be skinned alive (theoretically) for asking.  I might anyway.  We’ll see. 


  1. Vladimir says:

    Did she go to the police?

    • Ren says:

      I don’t know, I am guessing no.

      • Vladimir says:

        see, that’s what makes me skeptical

        I know in a lot of cases people don’t but then they don’t tend to share that it happened in those cases either right?

        now if this did happen, those responsible need to be punished, and in that old testament sort of way, but I am always suspicious of anecdotal eveidnece that just happens to prove a point.

        • hexy says:

          Simply, no.

          I’ve been sexually assaulted several times now. Never went to the cops, for various reason. Still occasionally talk about my experiences. The fact that a woman who says she was raped or abused didn’t call in the cops should NEVER be taken as “proof” of anything, other than that the police are a really unappealing option for a hell of a lot of women in that situation.

          • Ren says:

            I am with you on this one hexy

          • Vladimir says:

            I know it;s not proof, nor should lack of going to the police be reason to discount everythign (for example in the church abuse cases, that is exactly what happened no one ever went, they talekd about it and it was all true), but its this particular case where someone is using it to justify their arguments and discount other people’s experiences, but there are no proofs, no sdpecifics, is what makes me very very mistrusting of it

          • Vladimir says:

            I haave some very strong personal feeligna abotu rape, and in the one case of a person I actually know (which hads nothing at al l to do with sex work) the person invlovled most assuredly did not want to go to the police or anyone at all to know. So I understand that.
            But based off this to me it is one of the most heionous crimes i can imagien short of killing osmeone and I ahve some very very strong feelings about what should happen to perpetrators of such things.

            What botthers me here is the suspicion that someone is making this up, to prove thweir poitn. Becasue to make something up like this to win an internet argument,l essens to me everyone who has truly had to face the horror.
            If this woman fif have these excperiences, my heart bleeds, and I don;’t simply want the perpetrators to go to jail, no I am not that kind a person.
            But if it is not true, then my god, what are these people like to say such things and use such tales to diminish others?
            It is a tough spot, eecause you want to believe (or at least I do) everyone who say s these thigns, and you don;t want to in the slightest make them feel that you don;’t beleive or support them, it is such a horrible experience.
            But in the era of the internet it is hard to beleive people sometimes. Maybe thats a flaw in me, but I am distrusting of too conveinant things/

            • Ren says:

              Yeah, pretty much what you said right there.

            • hexy says:

              I’d be willing to put money on you actually knowing more than one woman who has been raped. There’s a whole bunch of reasons why women don’t tell anyone, most people, or the police.

              I’m with you on most of the rest of it, and as I said I have my own scepticism about this particular story, but I cannot emphasise enough that the deserved scepticism should not be in any way influenced by the (potentially hypothetical) rape victim avoiding police involvement.

  2. Roy Kay says:

    Well, you could go in and simply ask for details, on line or off, and indicate you will take it up within the industry. Mention to her that she would save a lot of others the grief.

    Also that she should report the rape to the police, that you would even drive her there if she is in your area (if you think that’s not too much a risk to yourself with the police). I mean rape and kidnapping? This is a serious issue. Appeal to her womanly solidarity.

    • hexy says:

      If it’s something that happened a while ago and she has no proof, there is absolutely no point in going to the police. While some of the things this woman has said have roused my inner sceptic as well, I absolutely believe her when she says that going to the police wouldn’t help.

  3. Ernest Greene says:

    I read it. It’s a lie on the face. By defnition, for porn to be considered mainstream, it must be lawful, which means made with lawful consent as defined by hordes of highly-paid company attorneys. The minute consent is withdrawn, as in “no, I don’t want to do that,” if the action continues thereafer, what is recorded is evidence of a crime, and is neither legal nor mainstream.

    The kind of behavior this pop-up poster describes is uttery alien to my 25 years of experience in making porn.

    And as I said, I have the visual evidence, not only from my own sets but, if necessary, from thousands of others, to conclusively establish the ongoing consent negotiations.

    A liar or two who comes out of the woodwork with vague, unsupported accusations naming no one and citing no particular situation, company name, date of production or any other evidentiary facts whatever, but manages to support every other lie told in this entirely false series of assumptions preceeding it, is more than suspiect. This is bullshit, pure and simple. If what she describes had happened on any set maintained by any “mainstream” company, the company itself would have had those involved arrested.

    As for this talk about retribution, intimidation or blacklisting, I’ve seen many performers quit in the middle of gigs for various reasons, mostly personal in nature, and then be rehired by the same company, or by a different company later that same day. These companies are in competition with one another. There is no secret cabal among them to punish performers. They can’t even be gotten to cooperate on common political and economic matters of direct bottom-line concern to all. They engage talent on the basis of commercial calculations, not their opinions of the what performers say and do on or off other sets.

    And once more, I have never heard these accusations from anyone who is not affiliated with an anti-porn group. I have never heard such a thing from a working performer, and I’ve known thousands over the years.

    A dozen or so fringe characters once briefly associated with porn, such as Shelley Lubben the evengelical tax evader, have chosen to make their livings, and pretty good livings at that, selling made up horror stories to credulous audiences. They know plenty of people in high places. They’re out of the business. They have nothing to lose by going after those who allegedly compelled them to do this or that. Why, after all the years these people have been floating these claims, has not a single charge ever been brought against a producer or director of mainstream video porn distributed by any major company, nor has anyone in that position ever been arrested or charged with such criminal activity?

    Think about that hard statistic. Not one case in four decades of legal porn. None. Zero. Zilch. Not one case. Not one trial. Not one conviction.

    There are press on these sets. There are cell phones. Performers have agents and lawyers of their own they can call. If the actions described were commonplace, how likely is it that no legal procedings of any kind would ever been brought?

    Performers have sued producers over money issues more than once. Because it’s a legal business where agreements are enforceable, civil actions have been initiated by performers with some considerable success where contract violations were claimed. None had anything to do with on-set behavior, but rather with misdeeds in the front office. But the recourse was clearly there and in at least one case that comes to mind, one of the biggest names in the business was the plaintiff, got a judgment and remains one of the biggest names in the business.

    So much for all that intimidation nonsense.

    No matter how many times a lie is told, or how preposterously it’s inflated for rhetorical purposes, or what anonymous sources with no specifics present themselves to affirm it, it remains a big, fat lie, the kind that totalitarian demagogues employ toward their own ends.

    Nothing more.

    Again, it’s the fun-house mirror. Nothing describe bears any resemblance to what actually happened.

    And as I can see this bunch of fanatical haters working themselves up into a lynching frenzy. I both invite and warn any of them who care to try and bring rape charges against me for making the porn I make to do so, to be prepared to be kicked out of the courtroom if they even make it past the clerk’s desk, and to spend the rest of their days in civil court being sued out of every penny they could ever hope to call their own by my lawyer.

    Bring it or STFU. This is a serious charge and I want to see some hard proof. In fact, as one of the putative accused in this charge, I demand that proof. That’s right, a man and a pornographer demanding proof of an allegation of criminal misconduct from radical feminists. How dare I? I just did.

    I’ve listened to and read their crap for years and now I call them out. Prove these things happen to a legal standard as it exists in this country’s criminal justice system (and no whining about the unfairness of that system since you’re the ones insisting that the purported crimes qualify for prosecution under that system) or stop lying.

    Or just go on lying and be happy knowing that everyone with two funcitoning brain cells can tell that’s what you’re doing.

    • Vladimir says:

      You deserve props, but of course you know they’ll just ignore you. They’re no different from any other fanatics, they live in their delusionary version of the world, and no fact, no harsh reality will make them change or open their eyes. They need these thigns to be true to justify everything they do.

  4. Ernest Greene says:

    Thanks Vlad, but they’re not quite ingnoring me. Check this:

    “Theres a pornographer over at ren’s place who is literally laughing at the very notion of prosecuting anyone for rape on a porn set, becuase he “knows” that the actresses and everyone there would all agree that it was all consensual and would say so if asked by the police, no prob. but they would all say the same thing if she was on dope, or if they all were, wouldnt they? THEY DONT GET TO DECIDE if a crime has occured! god! why not just walk into an old warehouse where everyone is suspected of stripping-down stolen cars and selling the parts and ask “hey, are you guys committing a crime? no? ok then!” this makes me so angry.”

    So angry she could what? Tell some more lies?

    Reading what I wrote above, it hardly seems like I’m laughing. I couldn’t be more serious. I’m inviting this person who claims I’m a rapist to come out from behind her mask and prove it in a court of law. That’s not a laughing matter, and I don’t think such accusations are funny. Not in the least bit. My challenge is totally on the level. And despite her gross distortion of what I said, it doesn’t depend on the “non-credible” testimony of those involved in the porn industry, although tesityfing under oath, they would be as credible as any other witnesses in the eyes of the court unless and until their testimony was demonstrated to be false.

    My claim is not based on – scare quotes alert – the fact that I “know” everyone present on a set would agree because we’re all in it together and/or too scared to say otherwise. My case would rest both on sworn testimony and on physical evidence, the unedited camera originals from any show I’ve ever shot. Editing the originals without leaving an electronic fingerprint is virtually impossible, and those COs show the reality of how porn scenes are shot, as opposed to the made-up version these scam artists are trying to sell to their pals.

    Nor, as she claims, am I making the false argument that those involved in any act at any level get to make the determination about whether or not such an act involves commission of a crime. In fact, I’m inviting her to see if she can actually get a prosecution going so that this question can be ajudicated before a judge and jury, who would weigh all the testimony and evidence introduced under the law and then render a verdict according to the law. Nothing subjective about it. If she can get a prosecutor to indict me, by all means, she should do so based on whatever representations she can make to duly constituted officers of the law.

    I will be more than happy to point any law enforcement officer with a search warrant to where the physical evidence can be found and provide a complete list of every human being present during the period when the crime of rape allegedly took place so that all of them can be summoned to testify before the court under oath.

    Then it would be up to the judge and/or jury, not my pals and me, to render a verdict of guilty or not guilty.

    I am 100% confident of the outcome of such a proceeding because I know what actually goes on and this person, along with her little gaggle of groupies, know absoltuely nothing about how porn is made. They’ve swallowed some lies from some individuals who lie for a living and now regurgitate those lies so others who of the same persuasion can lap up the mess.

    But none of that will play in court, full-stop. So I say as I said before, bring it or shut the fuck up. Do not accuse me of a heinous crime and misrepresent my response as laughter. There’s nothing funny about any of this and I’m sick of attempts by people who know nothing about me, what I do or anyone in my world to portray me as a heinous criminal.

    Clearly, no one on that side has the guts to even try giving me my day in court, but I make this promise. My real, legal name is well-known. Accuse me of rape or any other crime by that name in any public forum anywhere and, my right hand to god, I’ll see to it that you get your day in court instead. There are indeed laws against rape. There are also laws against libel, and I have both the means and the inclination to hold my accusers to the standards of those laws.

    Anybody still think I’m laughing?

    I’m tired of this bullshit and I want it stopped. Once I get a judgment against any of these slanderers, I have a funny feeling the rest will find something else to gripe about henceforward.

    It’s been my experience that liars also tend to be cowards.

    • Ren says:

      “It’s been my experience that liars also tend to be cowards”


    • Vladimir says:

      but you see they are ignoring your points, in fact your responses have just given them fodder t otwist and feed. Sometiems it seems like enganging them is the goal they want, just so they can tiwsit and manipulate what peple say to keep the fires stoked.

      • Ren says:

        eh, you know my temper and general dislike of people….these people, they really DO piss me off

        • Vladimir says:

          baah they aren’t worth your anger; anger is time and energy, and attention, and that’s waht they crave. They can’t exist without opposition that takes them seriously

  5. hexy says:

    Whenever a sex worker or ex-sex worker comes out and says, to me or anyone around me, that they were forced by an owner/operator to do things they didn’t want to do or otherwise exploited, we listen. We get the name of the establishment, or the name of the owner. We spread it amongst ourselves, through our networks, sometimes even through sex worker only publications and lists. We warn each other about the things we’ve heard, and keep an ear out for similar stories. This has been the way things work for an extremely long time.

    Whenever a sex worker or ex-sex worker comes out and says, to me or anyone around me, that they saw a client who abused them, or forced them to do things they didn’t want to do, or refused to stop when they asked, or anything else along those lines, we listen. We ask what name he was using, what he looks like, if he has any identifying features, what kind of session or service he asks for. We spread these details amongst ourselves, through our networks, through sex worker organisations and publications. We warn each other about the client, and keep an ear out for similar stories. This has been the way things work for an extremely long time.

    You’re damn right that if someone has a story like this about mainstream porn producers in the US, that I want to know who they were. I want myself and sex workers and porn performers who might be at risk of being victimised by those people to be able to be pre-warned about the threat of an exploitative producer. I want to be able to tell friends travelling to the US to do porn work to avoid those producers. I want that information to be available to sex workers and porn performers, who are the ones I care about when it comes to the ethics of porn production. And no, there is no need for this person to announce their old working name to provide these details.

  6. Ernest Greene says:

    Yes, well, oddly enough, those details never show up in any of this agitprop. Somehow, we end up hearing all about Linda Lovelace again, though what happened to her happened about forty years ago and she recanted much of her early testimony in later life.

    Four decades ago is a pretty cold case. Got anything more current, with any particular names and dates attached, including those of producers and directors who allegedly committed the crimes under discussion?

    I’d like to have that information myself, as would the rest of us who do this for a living.
    We don’t want our lawful business made unlawful by the actions of a criminal few. Let’s have some specifics so we can hand some people over to the law, if such specifics exist. Because that’s exactly what would happen if the things alleged daily by these cranks were brought to the attention of those who make their livings in a business they intend to see remain legitimate.

    That’s the great, gaping hole in all these fallacious claims. We have a pretty good thing going out here. Makes money. Keeps us out of jail. So we’re going to let all that be jeopardized by routinely allowing criminal behavior in our midst.

    Which is it? Are we clever fiends and evil geniuses who have invented this whole elaborate system to exploit the entire society for our own gain, or are we dumb shits who let thugs run rampant on productions for which we’re legally liable?

    Pick a charge and stick with it. It will still be bullshit, but at least it will be internally consistent.

  7. Ernest Greene says:

    And re this exchange:

    October 29, 2009 at 12:08 pm
    Did you take any legal action? Is there any way you could? People who do such things should be punished.


    October 29, 2009 at 8:26 pm
    There’s no way I could have. I signed the initial consent form, that was all they needed. Anything that happened after that was legal, as far as the legal system is concerned. ”

    If she took no legal action, how does she know what was legal as far as the legal system was concerned?

    Then she goes on to claim she was afraid to take such action for fear of violent retribution, which is inconsistent utterly with anything I’ve ever experienced, but if she wants to stick by it, her claim is made ever so slightly less credible by her insistence that she knows by way of her supernatural powers that the legal system would have construed a written release to suddenly make crimnal assault legal.

    If they were, in fact, holding her down and raping her, why would they even bother to get a release first anyway? All that would do is create evidence for the prosecution if their intent was to break the law in the first place.

    Somebody here has a few inconsistencies in her story. And the timing with which it appeared, just as the argument seemed to be going against the blogger who started it, doesn’t help with the believability problem much.

    • hexy says:

      If she’s telling the truth about her experiences, I’m guessing SOMEONE filled her head with the idea that the consent form meant she couldn’t report the crime.

      Whether that idea came from the alleged abusers or from radical feminists on the internet… who knows?

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