Okay, there are two now. The second one I read this morning after making my Oh FFS post about the night my dude friends living room became Sparta and you what, I’ll admit it… I laughed. And not in a ha-ha funny way but in a “wow, I obviously live on a totally different planet than these women live on” way.
I have come to the conclusion that such things must be absolutely true. I am not sure which is planet earth or whatnot, but yep, totally different planets. Granted, most of these women would prolly not be in a dudes living room when it turned into Sparta, or in some cases, at all, but hey, stick with me here…
I’ve never been quiet or shy about my thought that sex and aggression can be linked, to varying degrees, with some people. Some a lot more than others. I fall into the “more often than not” category. I tend to view sex as a sweaty, physical, primal, visceral thing (not “dirty”, but certainly all those words I just mentioned). I tend to think it is best when it is aggressive. I dig that. And my like of that sort of thing is notable and prevalent in any form of pornographic/erotic material I make; be it art, fictional writing, or yep, good old porn. The “vs” theme is rampant. But you know…
I don’t always see or have the female as the one who is defeated? I rather like things to be a win/win situation in that regard. Now, if you are of the mindset (as many of the women over there seem to be) that whoever ends up with a penis in them is the person who lost….well then…I am not sure what to tell you. If one views that as a sure sign of defeat….well, then we really, really are not from the same planet. I am sort of in the mindset that if the objective of the “fight” was sex, then the penis in them part actually is a sign of victory since well, that was part of the point in the end- to have sex (the het PiV kind, which is well, what I like, so what I put forth in my erotic/porny things). Hell, I mean anyone who has ever read the Martell stuff…shit, just because she often ends up with a penis in her, Zero is hardly an oft-defeated little victim now, is she?
And since I have determined that I am not from the same planet as these women, I will add the following. In all the “horrific” things mentioned over there where the women are so obviously just being defeated…dp, gangbangs, gagging…whatever….well, it is evident that the thought that no woman could ever welcome or enjoy that sort of a physical challenge is the rule of the day. No thought that a woman, after having engaged in all that, might stand up, smirk, and say “You threw your best at me and I am still standing whilst you all are sucking wind with cramps and just want to go to sleep.” Endurance factors in not at all when considering victory in “versus”. Outwit and Outlast are apparently reserved only for “Survivor”. And me, I guess, but hey, it is obvious I am not from the same planet.
Then again, in their defence, these women so alien unto me….well, one of the things the Patriarchy-as it were- has thrown at women for a long time is they are not supposed to be aggressive or competitive, especially with men. When it comes to that- well, I think a certain Tool There Of has done far better in shaking off that message Than Various Others Have. I’ll be aggressive and competitive with whomever I like so long as they consent to it, thanks.
And yeah, I do think it is hot. Even when I don’t “win”….I still win.
But of course there is no possible way any other woman out there could ever agree with me on that, right?
Renegade Evolution 
not a woman,so my opinion on this doesn’t count , but human beings are physical beings, so I never understand all the hate towards things that are physical.
It boils down to the argument, just becasue I don’t get something, it must be horrible?
It’s all akin to stamp colelcting to me. I mean I don’t understand in the slightest how someone could get any enjoyment out of that but thousands of people do, but to me , I am deriosuly liek, what are you all insane, but that’s not the truth. They are just different. I view people with different sexual expectations than me the same way, I may go wtf in my head but as long as everyone doing it actually wants to do it, then hey its none eof my business.
Of course someone will pop on shorlty with the argument that anyone who enjoys that was obviously warped, and therefore their personal desires have less value, but that is always a bs argument.
And for the record if I hd a female friend cool enough to greco roman wrestle with without any bs, why she’d just be the most amazing person on the planet (and not just for that reason I’d bet)
“It boils down to the argument, just becasue I don’t get something, it must be horrible?”
Often times yeah, it seems that way.
so then they are really just the same as homophobes then eh?
and by that I mean they’ve decided something they don’t do for themsleves is to be despised and it’s practioners marginalized and demonized.
but that would imply they’re close minded religious nutjobs and since I get to hold that title I can tell you they’re not that, they’re Open Minded People Who Love Earth and It’s Inhabitants Except Oppressors Like *HER* Because She’s a Freak And Homos…i mean…Gays Are People Too (unless they make the porno then they’re just misguided).
the parallels between Those People and Religious Nutjobs are hilariously multitudinous, especially when you point them out to both sets, because they all start to foam at the mouth and sputter like a poorly tuned VW.
“poorly tuned VW” – a lovely turn of the phrase
your ok in my book Rootie, after all us evil free market, libretarian, believers in personal responsibilty have got to stick together
AND she made me a SYLAR!
yeah but but but the Comedian!
Irish Pride!!…
sigh i just can’t compete with a figurine of your tv boyfriend i guess
well, not much beats irish pride and the comedian…
Oh I don’t know…I think I can agree with you, because I get all sorts of fun out of dominating (in my own genteel way) the heck out of a certain member of the Patriarchy. He likes it too, so it’s win-win. Mind you, we don’t turn the living room into Sparta, but games abound anyway, in our own genteel way. And in the end, when I get the Prize, we’re both happy because he gets to give it to me.
What I think is funny is the pearl-clutching and gasps of horror, because they seem so much like the Victorian Librarians that they’re simply making a mockery of themselves. Not to mention missing out on the fun of a little sweat and bosom heaving.
You mean to tell me you laughed at that, rather than at the quoted story?
the quoted story is classic, and yes, I laughed at that too. Dudes are funny sometimes.
>there’s something seriously amiss with that idea when it comes to this “until she ____s” shit.
There I was innocently being my “fucking amateur dom”ly best (her words), leaning back and telling her to suck my cock. So she said “Put your hand on my head” and I complied and gently stroked her hair. Then she put her hand on top of my hand and pushed hard. I felt my cock going deep into her throat and the light bulb lit up in my head. “Oh! I’m suppose to be FORCING YOU. Got it!”
And it seems others crave it too and I am happy to oblige. But you know, for me, “Actually, I Am Mainly In the “Lifestyle” to Get My Brains Fucked Out”.
Amen sister.
One question ND asked was “what does it mean” if a person enjoys being choked gagged, made to cry. As if I’m supposed to deny my body the pleasure it receives when I perform fellatio. I’ve never passed out from pleasure and lack of oxygen during oral, but I’ve come close.
But that question just floors me, “what does it mean”?
In the overall arc of life, what I enjoy in bed means very little. I spend a very small amount of time fucking, vs going to work, raising my kid, and interacting with the people in my life. Yeah, the personality that drives these desires bleeds over into your everyday life, but even then, if your actions inflict no harm on others, who gives a fuck? My partnership is constant dominance struggle, but its equitable and friendly, and it allowed us to channel our aggressive, argumentative personalities into a constructive pursuit, that has fostered a closer bond between us. Why should I stop, and change? Live a lie? How else would these people like to me cope with this struggle we call life?
Is it healthy? For me, and him, it is. This dynamic wouldn’t work with other relationships, and I wouldn’t expect people to follow my example.
So yeah, different planet, and sometimes it evens feels like a different language.
Also, that comparison with religious nuts is lame. Their objections arise from their desire to perpetuate a hierarchical, patriarchal society, which is threatened by women’s sexual freedom and by sexual freedom in general. Sure, that might mean they oppose porn or whatever sex acts they think are a threat, but how does that relate to me? First off, I am a liberationist woman, and I’ve got no interest in maintaining a male supremacist status quo. Second, I think the world would be a better place without shame attached to sex. Shame begets hostility, which begets misogyny. That doesn’t mean I have to think every sex act in the world is awesome, but I don’t care what anyone else does as long as no one gets hurt. And that’s where the porn problem comes in. I have been negatively affected by porn. Almost every woman I know has, either directly or indirectly. That doesn’t mean you’re the devil because you like it, but I don’t have to agree with you that it’s harmless just because it’s harmless for you (as you conceive of the concept of harmlessness). Third, my ideal solution would be for people to think about the relationship between sex and misogyny and women’s oppression, in the hope that such thinking might result in a reduction in the demand for misogynistic, harmful porn. The religious right’s ideal solution would be banning things they don’t like and putting the force of the state behind their bans, which would do nothing but push it underground and create even more harm.
When making comparisons like this, one really must take into account the motivations behind an ideology and the suggested means for making that ideology translate into reality. Once you’ve done that, the comparison falls apart.
Oh, so by deriding Ren’s sexual freedom, the same way the religious right would do, you still have no similarities? I’ve had Radical Feminists say I am Oppressed because I do precisely what *I* want to do, even tho it (circumstantially) presents to the outside as Patriarchally (however you spell that) Oppressed…Oh honey, the similarities between radical feminism and right wing fundamentalists are legion, and have nothing to do with Patriarchal Values. The similarities have more to do with general attitude toward people who think differently from you, that they are somehow wrong or flawed, and Need Reindoctrination. I live and breathe with right wing fundamentalists daily, and while they’ll probably bake me a casserole before you would (I mean, kitchen stuff is Oppressive, if you have to do it to please a man), they are very, very much like you-all. The motivations are strikingly similar, in that each ideology seeks to convince the world that THEY are RIGHT and EVERYONE ONE ELSE is WRONG…so little room for free thought and all.
Actually, I think it has a whole hell of a lot to do with Patriarchal Values, because Patriarchal Values are all about women policing each other’s lives, especially their sexuality. Always in that kind of looking-out-for-your-best-interests-honey kind of way, with a side order of “Women have to control and restrict themselves, because men won’t.”
Under Patriarchal Values, women are supposed to have their attention diverted with obsession about their bodies and how to clothe and decorate them, properly practice ascetic virtues like denial of desires for food and sex, and restrict their choices because of fear and because sacrificing one’s needs for others is a womanly virtue – and once women have done that, women get to gently shame others for not adhering to the proper standards of austerity and decorum, getting increasingly vicious as they demonstrate themselves unrepentant and unfeminine by having appetities.
can you classify direct and indirectly? just curious
sweety, you have a fleck of foam….right…there…there. Got it.
also I do have to admit there does seem to be a bit of condencension in your reply when you say things like ” don’t have to agree with you that it’s harmless just because it’s harmless for you (as you conceive of the concept of harmlessness)” because the implication is it is not harmles for the you in the statement either, they just don’t understand the harm.
Out of curiosuity, what makes one person’s conception of harm better than anothers?
Starting out with ablist language (“lame”) in your first sentence does not lend credibility to a claim that you are all shiny anti-oppression.
I’m not touching the “negatively affected by porn” with a ten-foot pole, because there’s no profit in trying to discuss such things with people who are speaking from completely different universes.
High five!
Or whatever you got.
Did you just seriously use the word “lame” as a derogatory term and then have the temerity to police someone else’s words and ideals?
Sorry, Ren, I know you aren’t big on language policing, but I just had to note the complete lack of empathy for other persons that this implies.
I suspect that has a great deal to do with why ND just might have some difficulties working up any empathy for any positions but her own.
Good grief, ND, you are so blindly locked into your own ideological structure that you shout arguments at people that only make in the confines of your own framework. Small clue – not everybody sees the world in terms of Feminism vs Patriarchy. Hence, just because an ideology is “anti-patriarchal” does not mean that it can’t end up looking very much indeed like traditional patriarchal ideologies. Indeed, its been often observed that one can end up with very similar practices starting from formally opposing ideologies, Communism and Fascism being the classic example of this.
Given this reality about ideology, its not surprising at all that radical feminism can end up with ideas about sexuality that in many ways mirror traditional religiously-based social conservatism, even as the ideology positions itself in formal opposition to such conservatism. Radical feminists are fond of pointing out that we’re all products of patriarchal culture, yet strangely leave their belief system out of the equation. Those of us on the sex-positve end of things tend to think radical feminists have picked up some very deep-seated puritanical ideas about sexuality, but express such fear and discomfort in an entirely different ideological framework. However, what is very telling is that the political expression of radical feminism so often neatly dovetails with that of the religious right in a common politics of moral panic (examples: well-documented alliances with the religious right against pornography, for prostitution “abolition”, and even at one time against the bogeyman of satanic ritual abuse).
And as for the issue of calling in the power of the state against pornography, if you’ve been following the politics of pornography at all, you’d note that there’s plenty of radical feminists who are very much for doing exactly this. In forms from Dworkin and MacKinnon’s campaign to attack porn as a “civil rights” violation (and don’t even try to feed me the doublespeak that this isn’t a form of state-sanctioned censorship) to the current UK law against “extreme pornography”, pushed in no small part by intensive radical feminist lobbying and consultation around the proposed law. Just because censorship is not part of your “ideal solution” is irrelevant given the long-established trend of radical feminist legal activism against pornography.
Hence, the comparison between radical feminism and the religious right is entirely valid. Same old shit, different rationalization.
Really a great post, Ren. Just great.
Yep, I agree with Daisy. Great post.
ND doesn’t need empathy. She’s got the truth. Just ask her. And if we don’t like her version of it, maybe we should all just go off ourselves.
Oh GET A LIFE WILL YA!? ‘Lame’ is just a word….you can find it in any good dictionary, so can we PLEASE DISPENSE WITH THE POLIITICALLY CORRECT BULLSHIT!!
I swear, we’re in danger of getting so obesessed with every snivelling cry-baby’s delicate little fee-fee’s that we’ll stop talking altogether!!
And yes I’m disabled.
so am I, and yet the lame reference flew right over my head…I was too busy dealing with the nutjob, oop there it goes again.
Hehe, you can come and play on my blog any time 😀