Hold Up, With the full on Screeching of Breaks…

Posted: October 13, 2009 in Pornography, Slut Shaming & Whorephobia, WTF???

…and sounds of smashing headlights…

Yeah, Polanski is an ass.  The people who signed that petition I sure as hell wonder about.  But what all the fuck does Sasha Grey have to do with any of it?

And hells yes I want to comment over there, but I am not gonna “jack the thread” or whatever else.  But ffs come on.  Grey has been pretty dang straight forward about the hows and whys of her porn career, the fact that why yes, she did aggressively choose that career, so on, so forth.  There is one person exploiting Grey, and it is Grey.  And okay, so what, Grey was cast in a mainstream movie.  And?  What, because she is tainted by porn she should not be allowed in more mainstream movies?  Hummm.  I mean, is that what you’re saying ND?  Hell if I know, but it is what it sounds like. 

Of all the people to try and paint as a poor exploited young woman who just does not know any better and cannot make decisions for herself yadda “>yadda yadda yadda, Grey is not a good choice.  And further more, she has been pretty dang adamant about how much she hates it when people try to do so.  Hummm….I sense a running theme there with a lot of women in the sex industry- you know that whole don’t say who, what, and how I am for me, thanks, I can do it myself thing- but you know, I am not surprised to see it happening anyway, regardless of how much Grey (or anyone else) might hate it.  Fire whatever bullet at whatever target works, I guess. 

I have come to a conclusion.  Actually, I arrived at it a long freakin’ time ago.  A lot of people are downright threatened by and abhor the mere idea that women in the sex industry might actually have brains, the ability to make their own decisions, have some affection and or vision for what it is they are doing, and oh shit, might actually be good at or have a talent for a whole lot of things other than…being poor exploited women who can be used as an illustration of/for whatever at any given moment by people who probably do not give a crap about them- or let alone listen to them.

Jesus Christ.  I really do want to know how many of the anti porn types over there have ever really listened to Grey, you know, actually listened to her, and what she has to say about her decisions to be in porn.  Oh wait, she can’t possibly make decisions now, can she?  She like all those poor creatures is apparently too fucking stupid to do so, or at least to be believed.

A yep, that is what I really feel like it comes down to some days.  Anti porn people thinking all women in porn are fucking morons…and thus, can be used at will for whatever agenda, because they are too dumb to notice.

Rage.  No real words for it…just rage.

  1. Gaina says:

    ‘And who wouldn’t listen to the legal and artistic opinions of the man behind the film Erin Brockovich’.

    There are few things quite so ugly or stupid as snobbery, I think.

  2. Vladimir says:

    this is a classical logical fallcy (though I can’t remember the official name for it)
    1) Steven Soderbergh supports that child rapist Polanski
    2) he worked with Sasha Grey a porn star
    3) so since he is wrong about Polanski, we can therefore ignore any arguments he may have made on other subjects we disagree with

    It’s a correaltion without fact
    it’s typical circuititous argument, not a true dialectical or logical exchange

    Unfortunately you’ll never get them to admit that, as for them they already know the result of all their reasoning in advance and they just make everything fit to that predestined conclusion

  3. Nine Deuce says:

    She’s a kid, Ren. And Soderbergh is a perfect example of these douchebag liberal dudes who wanna argue for women’s rights as long as they’re limited to women’s “right” to suck dick for money. It isn’t surprising that this kind of guy is also a rape apologist.

    • Ren says:

      Shes 21. And like all people in legally made porn, was over 18 when she started. She is also no fool and spent time thinking about exactly what she wanted to do then actively sought out doing it in a very aggressive style. If you want to rant on endlessly about liberal dudes and rape apologists, okay. The man put Grey in a film where oddly enough, she wasn’t sucking dick, she was acting and playing a character she wanted to play. Maybe they were both using eachother to reach their respective ends, but sorry, painting Grey as a victim just is not going to work, young or not, the woman isn’t at all what you seem to want to say she is.

      And once again, what does Grey have to do with his views on Polanski? Nothing really. And young or not, Grey is not some poor duped lost little girl who got tricked into doing rough porn. She, with intent and forethought, chose to do that. And has said so repeatedly. And has also said repeatedly how much she dislikes people painting her as some poor lost little victim who got suckered in by the big bad porn industry. Does that even matter to you at all? Or can her actual thoughts, intent, and wants be dismissed because she is a “kid” who is in porn? Answer please….its a straight forward question to which your reply will show much.

      Plenty of “kids” with thought and drive do things other people might not: join the military, go to college, get jobs, train to become police officers, get into frats, play dangerous sports, and yep, work in the sex industry. So what? This does not make them all dumb or victimized. Grey is neither of those things. Plenty of “kids” have plans and goals that would put those of 40 year olds to shame.

    • Erik says:

      Ren may wish to make her own definitive reply, but here is mine. Nine Deuce, you are conflating two widely divergent situations. 1. The drugging and forcible rape – “statutory” does not begin to describe the non-consensual and assaultive nature of the crime – of 13-year-old Samantha Geimer 2. The acting career choices of 21-year-old Sasha Grey. The latter makes a particularly poor exemplar for your implicit argument that rape and porn are similar or corollary. Grey makes conscious and complex career choices, with reference to auteurs such as Agnes Varda, Jean-Luc Godard and Michelangelo Antonioni. She also engages university audiences in dialogue and creates avant-garde music. This information is not hard to uncover: it and more is in her wikipedia entry along with a New York Times quote about her ” unusual degree of intellectual seriousness.” One might dispute that assessment, challenge the artistic choices she has made and argue that they are unhealthy for her in particular and bad for women in general. To move from such assertions to a claim or suggestion that the cases of Grey and Greimer are similar is insupportable. As for Soderbergh, he indeed may be a “douchebag liberal dude” – a type for which I have little respect and less time – and he deserves to be called to account for his petitioning on behalf of Polanski’s criminal behavior. But Soderbergh’s accountability for this does not implicate Sasha Grey nor does it substantiate an implication that rape and porn are corollary phenomena. Ren can probably say it better, with a more four-letter words, but this is my reply.

      • Nine Deuce says:

        It doesn’t implicate her. I didn’t say it did in the post. I merely said that it’s no surprise to me that, when this guy wants to be a “feminist,” it takes the form of his defending a woman’s “right” to fuck for money, given that he’s also a rape apologist. He’s a misogynist. The end.

  4. Nine Deuce says:

    And let’s say she’s the only one doing the exploiting (riiight), who cares? It’s still exploitation, and it still amounts to profiting on misogyny, whether it’s Grey or someone else who is doing the profiting (and let’s not pretend she’s the only one). Soderbergh is an asshole. However independent Grey may be, she’s being used by people with agendas, (Soderbergh being one of them) and you know it. The people who make the real profits in the porn industry love women like Grey, because she covers them.

    • Ren says:

      Every human on the face of the earth is exploited in some way, as a consumer or a producer. Soderbergh is an asshole…who put Grey in a non-pornographic film. Is Clint Eastwood an asshole for casting Hilary Swank in a mainstream film? Last time I checked, Soderbergh was not a porn director….so how is he exploiting Grey by having her in a film?

      Point is, Grey is a very focused young woman who has made the decisions and choices she has with thought and intent. She has planned things and such…so treating her like some poor little dupe is not only insulting, it is laughable to anyone who knows anything about her or who has ever listened to her. You picked a bad example, which might be hard to admit because it sort of shoots holes in your rant about Soderbergh, but it remains true. Grey is one of the women in porn who absolutely has the power and clout to walk off a set any time she wants and make the lives of people who treat her in a manner she does not like difficult.

      Or what, are we back at women cannot actually ever think anything for themselves and are all just forever and always being played by and for men? If that is the case, there is no use discussing anything with anyone who does not have a penis because we’re all, why yes, ALL, duped idiots. I tend to think that is not the case.

      People use people for agendas every single goddamn day. You’re using Grey for one right now, actually.

      • Nine Deuce says:

        She isn’t integral to the point, other than the fact that she’s the one Soderbergh chose to make a movie with. He chose to do so not because he loves strong women, but because he knew it’d create controversy and make him money, and because it’d give him a platform to tell the world how awesome it is for women to exploit themselves for money. I don’t care if Grey is her own woman. But seriously, she made this careful decision you point to AS A TEENAGER, and the fact that she gets so much attention for it now has to have a lot to do with the way she thinks about it and talks about it. She’s a symptom of the fact that people in our current culture are willing to do anything to get famous, including aggressively exploit themselves. That she’s successful at it doesn’t make it any better. You might be cool with everything in the world being commodified and exploited. I’m not. That’s why I call myself a radical. Sexual capitalism blows.

        • Erik says:

          This argument has moved well beyond the parameters of my earlier comment, which was intended to distinguish between the cases of Grey and Greimer. The telling moment for me in the ensuing colloquy between Ren and Nine Deuce is the assertion by the latter that “I don’t care if Grey is her own woman.” The text – never mind anything so indirect as subtext – is that ideology trumps personal agency and personhood. Perhaps the successor regime to “sexual capitalism” will be sexual Stalinism. Let us keep in mind Marx’s dictum that history recurs as farce. Now inclusive of the history of “radical” thought.

          • Nine Deuce says:

            Right, compare me to someone who murdered 20 million people. Good job, there, dude.

            • Erik says:

              Ren, as you asked I reviewed the rules. Am I in violation? You don’t really think that my poking fun at pseudo-radical phraseology constitutes a personal comparison of Nine Deuce to Josef Stalin do you?

            • Erik says:

              Oh please. I don’t think you are about to seize the commanding heights of anything beyond your own dudgeon.

            • “Is it necessary for a bunch of people to die in the course of a wholesale reorganization of human society?”

              Translation: Its not like I’ve killed 20 million people in pursuit of radical change, but, hey, its an idea worth discussing.

          • Ren says:

            Erik, see the rules….notibly, my take on godwins law.

        • Drakyn says:

          So, if a 18 & 21 year olds are too immature/stupid/etc to make their own decisions, what should the age of majority be? When should “kids” be allowed to move out of their parents homes? Vote? Get a job? Take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt (college in USA)? Consent to medical procedures? Rent an apartment? Start a business?
          How old do I have to be before doing any of those things? Is 25 old enough? 30?
          Or is 21 only too young to make real decisions when the decision is something you disagree with?

          • Nine Deuce says:

            I didn’t say she shouldn’t be ALLOWED to make her own decisions, just that we need to be realistic about how mature an 18-year-old really is. I for one am fucking stoked that none of the stupid things I did at that age are as permanent as, oh, I don’t know, having a few hundred pornographic videos floating around.

            • Drakyn says:

              There are actually several things I wish I could have done at 18 that I had wanted (& still wish) to do. Medical procedures I’ve been wanting to have since I was 16/17.
              Moreover, there are quite a number of things I’m glad that I’m able to do now that I’m nearly 22. Hells, when I was 20 I was able to change my name legally and I’m glad I didn’t wait any longer to do it.
              Many of my friends were also able to make important decisions at a young age. Whether it’s what school they enrolled in (including the debt they’ll take on), moving to a different city, or what career path to follow.
              Perhaps you were an immature young adult, but there are plenty of us who are quite capable of making decisions that will affect us long-term and/or are permanent. Given that she still believes she has done the right thing for herself, I’d say Sasha Grey is one such young adult who can and has made mature decisions.

              • Nine Deuce says:

                We’ll talk when you’re 30.

                • Sneeky Bunny says:

                  Oh no you did not just do that. That smug, dismissive, ageist comment is a cheap shot and you know it. I’m 46, should I dismiss all that you have, through thoughtful examination and research come to espouse as deep belief in Feminism by saying talk to me when you’re forty? You owe Drakyn an apology little missy. (shakes aged wrinkled finger while peering over tops of glasses)

                • Ren says:

                  I’ll be 37 next month. Now, ageist as that just was and all….

                  Why am I bothering? I am probably older than you (not that it matters), was doing stuff naked at 18, and oddly enough… I still disagree with you.

                • TrinityVA says:

                  I’m 30… and I think this comment is full of shit, for whatever it’s worth. Yeah, some of my opinions have changed as I grew (I gave up on radical feminism, for one… heh) but I really don’t get this idea that people radically change as the years go by.

            • Ren has written many times about the permanent effects of having appeared in porn, and what they mean. But I can’t help recalling a documentary I saw about the women who appeared in “Debbie Does Dallas”. Most of them did feel it had had a negative effect on their lives, except one. And she was the only one who felt no shame about her role in that classic of porn. Could it be that shame, and not porn, was the cause of many of those problems?

              It’s not as if young folks have a monopoly on stupid and life-changing decisions either. To err is human, after all! This whole “maturity” issue is a complete red herring in that sense.

              The only questions that matter are: “Did Sasha Grey know what the consequences of appearing in porn were likely to be?” to which the answer appears to be “Yes, inasmuch as anyone knows the likely consequences of their career choices”, and “Was Sasha Grey coerced in any way?” to which her answer is an emphatic “No, now get out of my face, concern troll!”

              Everything else is precisely that: concern troll talk.

            • Ren says:


              But see, that is YOU. You and Grey are NOT the same person. How hard is it to understand there is NO universal woman…we’re all vastly different in ways uncounted. She made choices different than you did- that does not make her weak, stupid, whatever. It just does not. There are 18 year olds out there who are very level headed, mature, whatever. Not everyone is going to feel the way you feel about life at 18.

            • Roy Kay says:

              >I for one am fucking stoked that none of the stupid things I did at that age are as permanent as, oh, I don’t know, having a few hundred pornographic videos floating around.

              Oy. Do you ever sound like the Patriarchal Gyn-Obs who harass women who don’t want kids to keep them from getting a tubal.


              “Oh you’re just young and stupid. OF COURSE you will want babies.”

        • Ren says:

          Well, hey, if we just want to stick to calling polanski and people who signed the petition assholes, we’re good. And unless you were sitting there when the casting decisions were made, you have no idea why he cast Grey in his movie. None of us do- jesus. Point is, I am sick of this shit…people who think they know the motivations and why fors of Other Peoples LIVES better than those people know themselves. It’s fucking disgusting and the boundry issues going on with it are huge. You know jack and shit about Grey, or any other woman like her for that matter. A lot of women get involved in the sex industry at 18. Lots of them. Do you know all about how and why they do it to? I mean, your whole take on her above is written as if it is fact. Its not. You might like to think it is, but that does not make it so. Just like you probably have no idea of the full reasons why she got cast in a mainstream film, so on, blah blah blah. Hey, maybe he thought she could act? Hummm, nah, that could never be it….

          And I am not cool with everything being commodified and exploited, but it is, and nah, I’m not a radical- I’m a realist. Sexual Capitalism may indeed blow, but no more so than anti sexual capitalists in their fight against sexual exploitation exploiting the helll out of people…oh what…oh yeah, for their agendas!

          Smirk. At least porn directors get consent forms signed first.

  5. Drakyn says:

    Sneeky Bunny, your first two sentences were pretty much exactly how I was going to reply. ^_^;;
    [so insert those ideas here too]

    Seriously, there are decisions I regret making. But many were far more influenced by my internalized ableism and/or my particular neurodiversity than my age (the decisions you make while having a breakdown at 30 can be just as bad as the ones at 18, after all). The others were pretty much the best decision out of a host of shitty options (going to college was the best way of getting away from my parents; since I knew running away & living on the streets wasn’t a very good idea–even *gasp* at 18).
    Most of the decisions that affected me long term I’m still quite happy with & I still wish I’d been able to make -more- of the decisions I’d wanted to at 17-20.

    And anyway ND, I am actually 99.9999999% certain that I’ll be able to tell you I’m happy about the decisions I’m making when I’m ~40~.

    • Nine Deuce says:

      I’m not saying you won’t be. I’m not trying to go back and undo anything, but I’m also not going to pretend that I was a rational, mature adult when I was 18. I did a TON of stupid shit then, and probably wasted a lot of my time that would have been better spent.

      • hexy says:

        You are probably still doing this. It’s not something the young have a monopoly on.

        I made good and bad decisions whilst young. I make good and bad decisions now. I think it’s ridiculous to act as though people suddenly develope an immunity to making stupid fucking decisions when they hit 25, 30, 50, or any other arbitrarily chosen age.

        I entered the sex industry at 21, and that was after a year and a half or so of wanting to but not being well enough for any kind of work. I know people who entered the industry at a huge variety of ages. I don’t think any of them have the monopoly on good plan/bad plan based on age.

  6. Sneeky Bunny says:

    Drakyn is right 92, Your experience is not the universal experience, and the fact that *you* , in the wisdom of your now advanced years, can look back and judge your 18 year old self lacking in sense and discretion does not make your flip remark to Drakyn any less insulting. You’re better than that.

  7. Orlando C says:

    Ageism is funny. We’ve been moving up the age of consent for everything for what, a century or so? But it goes back and forth, it’s inconsistent, and it often seems to reflect a kind of anxiety about mortality.

    I mean, ND and the whole you’re-too-young-for-X gang seem to be saying that if we could just put a big enough circle of caution tape around youth, then we would never make any irreversible bad choices until we were adults. But all our choices are irreversible, in a sense. I wasn’t very social in elementary school; I flunked out of math in 9th grade. These things affect me today in real ways, and I can never go back and do them over. I lost my virginity in this one particular way, to this one person, and I can’t go back and do it again in some different way. At age 20, I printed a set of illustrations that today I consider such pretentious crap that I wake up at night feeling sick about it, over a decade later. I would gladly wave a magic wand and have every copy of them vanish off the face of the earth. But I can’t.

    That’s life. Time moves in one direction, the moving hand writes and is never unwritten. It seems absurd to categorize particular elements of the human experience (sex) and say: this is bonus special extra irrevocable. Everything is irrevocable.

  8. Ernest Greene says:

    Including joining the military and getting blown to bits, which those over 18 are presumed capable of doing. Oddly, I hear little objection to this rather more dangerous choice from certain quarters than I hear about the choice to do sex work.

    FYI, unlike those who presume to know all about what goes on in Sasha Grey’s head, whether or not she’s “one of the most aggressively exploited young women in the porn industry ” or anything else about her, I actually know her as a person. Young? Yes. Smart? Very.

    In need of judging by hostile outsiders who routinely tell huge lies about what she does for a living? Not.

  9. Wow – from Polanski to ragging on Sasha Grey, via some tenuous connection through Steven Soderberg? Talk about guilt-by-association and stretching a point!

  10. antiprincess says:

    Upthread from Nine Deuce:

    She isn’t integral to the point, other than the fact that she’s the one Soderbergh chose to make a movie with. He chose to do so not because he loves strong women, but because he knew it’d create controversy and make him money, and because it’d give him a platform to tell the world how awesome it is for women to exploit themselves for money. I don’t care if Grey is her own woman.

    (italics mine)

    see, it’s statements like those that sum up the differences in our world views. for me, the whole point of feminism is to recognize the capability of each woman to be fully human and make decisions for herself, and be able to take responsibility for her decisions. I feel like Grey IS integral to the point and I DO care if Grey is her own woman.

    and fwiw, I don’t feel a need to apologize for that, although I recognize that other individuals (haHA!) may review the same evidence and come to a different conclusion.

  11. Ernest Greene says:

    “I don’t care if Grey is her own woman.”

    Knda says it all, doesn’t it? Deuce wants to hammer Soderbergh and Grey is just a convenient cudgel. Her humanity is not important. She’s just disposable fodder for the greater battle.

    But of course, this is all about the evils of exploitation of young women, unless the exploiter identifies as a radical feminist, then it’s hip and cool to trash young women.

    No contradiction there. Nope, not in the keen, logical mind of ND. As she never tires of reminding us, she’s the one who’s got it all going on and the rest of the world, women included, are just bit players in the stirring drama of her war with the patriarchy. If a few women get sacrificed in that war, well, shit happens, right?

  12. antiprincess says:

    maybe she doesn’t recognize them as officially women? or maybe women who haven’t come to her level of consciousness, so to speak, deserve what they get? the whole individual-woman-vs-Class-Woman thing has been done to death – but this it what it reminds me of.

  13. Now, I’m just getting back online after a week, so maybe I’m late in this game…but what’s the issue here??

    That Steven Soderbergh is “anti-women” merely because he defended Roman Polanski??

    Because he happened to put Sasha Grey ion a mainstream movie, that makes him…an exploiter of women????

    And because Sasha Grey happens to be a porn star who is in her late teens….that makes her too inmature to make her own decisions…and thusly, she’s merely a victim, and he a…pedophile???

    WOW…that’s a hell of a lot of nonsense concentrated in one fell swoop.

    If Sasha Grey was a fashion model or a B-level Hollywood starlet, we wouldn’t even hear from ND at all…but since she’s an unapologetic porn actress who is able to defend herself and is shameless about her profession, she in the eyes of ND and the rest of the GenderBorg gang automatically become the designated “object” of their “victimhood” campaign….the Polanski mess is merely a crutch for justifying denying her humanity.

    Polanski is a freak and an a-hole who should still be under the jail for what he did, as far as I am concerned…but I’m not going to condemn those who actually think that even he deserves his day in court to defend himself, or that anyone around him deserves to get the treatment of guilt by association.

    Sorry, ND, but that cigar stopped smoking months ago.


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