Posted: September 22, 2009 in Slut Shaming & Whorephobia

slut2So, I went and I read this














Then I was talking about the whole “slut” thing with Ginmar, and I got to thinking.  Often dangerous, you know.  And look, it seems I lied.  I said there would not be much feminist-esque stuff on this blog, but I guess maybe I was wrong, because yep, this is the sort of thing many feminists do talk about. 

And nah, I am not going to talk about that particular case.  I am not going to talk about if she was or was not really raped.  What I am going to talk about is how slut shaming hurts everyone and how the double standards regarding slut like behavior between women and men are complete and utter bullshit.

That’s right, you heard me, bullshit.  And the first dude that comes over here and whines about sexual shaming towards men or “well we have different pressures, what about us?” is going to get virtually slapped, because this post is not about that, savvy?  This post is specifically about the word “slut” and all that goes with it. 

Now, shocker here I am sure, but by any sane definition of the word, I am a slut.  I rather like being a slut, thanks. And I have before said within regards to dress, I do believe in truth in advertising.  I mean, if I am dressed like my cartoon gal there, and I go out somewhere, I do expect that why yes, men might assume I am interested in sex.  They might approach me about it.  However, I have also said repeatedly, no matter what any woman is wearing or how she acts with other men, no man, or group of men, has the right to assume she is interested in sex with them.   Chances are, if she is interested in sex with you, she will let you know.  You do not have the right, no matter what she is wearing to assume that she wants to, will, or should have sex with you.  Jesus Christ I hope that is clear.  But be that as it may, what, with my like of being a slut and whole truth in advertising theory, I absolutely realize there is a down side.

Follow me here…  I know a lot of women think that they can or have reclaimed the word slut (or countless others like it).  I am skeptical on that one.  Sure, I use the word slut (and others like it) all the time, namely when referring to myself…but you know, I don’t buy the reclaimation theory.  I just happen to think- good and bad connotations- that there is nothing wrong with being a slut…and if people want to see me/judge me in a negative way merely by the fact that yep, I am a slut…well, frankly, I got no use for them.  They can suck my proverbial strap on in hell and all.  However, regardless of my personal take or feelings on the word, the stone cold and sad fact is being labelled a slut is not helpful the majority of the time in the eyes of the world at large.  It is, currently in our society, a bad thing, and so long as it remains as such, shit ain’t been reclaimed at all, people.

Unless you have a penis.  At which point, being a slut isn’t so bad.  In fact, in great segments of society (i.e. the dominant culture), it is fine and dandy, even good.  Guys who have lots of sex are playas, playboys, ladies men, “lucky”, or other various euphemisms.  At worst, they are “dogs”…but dog isn’ t the same as bitch, and shoot, even being a dog is envied by many.  I mean, for real…

If I get raped or sexually assaulted, well, because I am a slut you sure as shit know my sexual history is going to be on the table for discussion…if not in a trial itself, everywhere else.  However, I wonder if my attackers would be?  Do you think he would get asked how many women he had slept with?  If he had one night stands?  If he picked up women on a regular basis merely to have sex with?  If he dressed in a manner that showed off his body?  I doubt it.  And even if he did, do you think public opinion about him being a slut would be nearly as negative as it would about me being a slut?  Oh, I don’t think so.

And this whole double standard thing regarding men being sluts vs women being sluts?  It doesn’t help anyone, really.  It only hurts people. Frankly, I dream of a world where women and men can or cannot be sluts as they choose and no one really cares because truthfully, it is not their business.  And a woman who has agreed to have sex with the entire state of New York might turn down and get raped by one dude from Boston…and guess what, if the dude from Boston  raped her, the fact that she has fucked all of NY should not matter at all, because she consented to do that.  And this whole double standard thing?  It does not just hurt the women.  It does hurt the men too.  With the current dominant culture, the whole “your wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister” is a slut has repercussions on males (where as your husband/boyfriend/son/brother/male lover thing does not to the same degree at all), but it goes beyond that.  It reinforces the idea that men are supposed to get as much sex and possible and women are not supposed to give it (which hey, never plays into rape at all or anything), it plays into men having negative thoughts towards women who do have sex, possibly with lots of people, including people other than them), and you know what. it just, just might, on some occasions, when a woman realizes she will be shamed and branded a whore for the rest of her life by the majority of the world because she “acted like a slut” …well, it just might make her levy accusations against a man or men which are false.*  And even if she does go to that extreme, she’ll still be called a slut…and not in a good way.

So yeah, with the walking around every day of my life with the whole slut label in place, I am not sure if reclaiming can or ever will work.  What I do think would be grand was if people, men or women, were sluts, it did not freakin’ matter and it did not have the power to destroy their lives.  And on this, women always get the  short end of the stick.  We’ve not reclaimed shit.  I’ve accepted that and can deal with that and fail to care what 99% of people think about it in regards to me; but you can bet your ass and a pair if snake skin boots I damn well know what the potential punishments for my sluttiness could be, from “oh she’s fucked everyone she probably deserved it or is lying” in an instance of rape to, oh, potential future employment in non-sex based fields to, oh, daily bullshit from other humans.  I know my chances there, and yeah, I am willing to take them.

But that is me, one person, in the here and now.  I wonder about all those other people, women people specifically.  I think about how the double standards on the word slut hurt everyone.  And yeah, I sure as hell think they do.  It’s okay for men to be sluts, no one seems to care or really judge them for it.  Women?  Oh, not the same case at all.  And that, my friends, sucks.   Until that changes?  Well, the word “slut” has not been reclaimed at all, and women who are sluts will take all the bad that goes with it.

And oh yeah, any man who is a slut who fucks female sluts and then acts like they are so much lower than he is and would not speak up in her defense were she sexually assaulted or what have you?  I really do hope your dicks rot off and I wonder just how much you hate yourself…. just sayin’, one slut to another.

*By no means am I saying this is what happened in the case I linked, but the sexual shaming of women has led to and inspired some pretty fucked up shit that harms everyone involved. 

  1. rootietoot says:

    150 years ago, a slut was someone who a sloppy, lazy housekeeper. I wonder when the definition changed, and how.

  2. Joy says:

    “I mean, if I am dressed like my cartoon gal there, and I go out somewhere, I do expect that why yes, men might assume I am interested in sex. They might approach me about it. However, I have also said repeatedly, no matter what any woman is wearing or how she acts with other men, no man, or group of men, has the right to assume she is interested in sex with them.”

    THIS. Thank you, Ren, for putting this in words. I remember my father very pointedly showing me the episode of “Happy Days” in which Joni is admonished “not to advertise if she can’t deliver” or something like that. The expectation of being able to be sexual, be interested in sex, and present that in my appearance without feeling like a “harpy” or “temptress” because I’m not up for giving sex to any guy (or gal) who wants it is something I could never quite…explain? Justify? to many of the men in my life.

  3. Ren says:

    Joy- well some people are stupid enough to assume that a woman dressed in a certain manner is willing to have sex with anyone; no matter how repulsive or vile they are. Hummm, that is wrong. I mean, when I dress in a certain manner, I am looking to attract men I’d LIKE to have sex with…I am not sure how that is so hard to understand? Then again, a lot of people are morons….

  4. octogalore says:

    Totally agree about slut shaming and how that’s used to control women — by both men, and other women.

    Agree too that this case isn’t a good example. It’s unclear whether she lied to the boyfriend because of societal slut shaming, or because possibly their relationship was supposed to be monogamous. It wasn’t clear from the article.

  5. Roy Kay says:

    Uh, actually I started calling myself a slut in solidarity with women who are called sluts. I think reclamation id proceeding. Too slowly, but proceeding. The GOP has been persistently anti-slut, which is bad. I am sure some liberal Democrats are even thinking “That slut, Lewinsky, lost us the 2000 election.” (I’ve kind of always felt she got the short of of the stick.) My guess is that politically, Libertarians are the most loyal slut supporters. Unfortunately politics shapes the “approved” social view. We’ll know we’ve made progress when the first slut/swinger/poly person runs openly as a slut and wins.

    Till then, it helps if those who can afford to do so are openly sluts – and return enmity for enmity until slut shaming (not the scene kind) end. Just today, on fetlife, was started a thread “Society and the slut. (Or, how you deal with the anti-slut mindset)”. My post was

    >I’ve always sort of considered myself a superior life form, and fucking EVANGELIZE being a slut. (Maybe we need the word “Sluttism”, and we can call ourselves Radical Sluttists or RadSluts for short, though technically getting rid of accreted slut-shaming might be arch-reactionary.) Naturally, society’s opinion holds little truck with me. Society is expected to get with the program and be found wanting is it doesn’t.

    >Needless to say, any anti-slut comments and attitudes are met with something between derision and a lecture. What kind of idiot holds it against someone that they enrich themselves and the world by sharing and enjoying their sexuality? And there is a hidden benefit in this – I think sluts tend to extend this value to the rest of their lives and just give more of themselves, which means they are more productive. That makes sluts more valuable people to have around, and enterprises with sluts in them more prosperous.

    It appears the the RadSlut idea has some attraction; so, while we haven’t won yet, but we are increasingly united. Change will come, but first in society and only last in polity. Reclamation is worth it for that very reason.

    • Ren says:

      Roy, in theory I agree with you…but let me point out one small thing here:

      You are a man. It is unlikely your sluttitude would be gutted and read like entrails in the case of a rape trial. It is unlikely you walk down the street and get names yelled at you because you are wearing a short skirt. It is unlikely people feel they have the RIGHT to fuck you because of what you are wearing or because you have fucked other people. It’s easy for you to embrace and love the sluttitude because gee, you don’t take 1/4 the negative female sluts do.

      And in the fet life community I am SURE the idea is popular amid men and women alike, however, that is amid the fet life community. Many such places are safe spaces for sluts. The real world is different, and I am willing to be a lot of women who talk loud and proud there about being a slut would STFU and fold l ike a house of cards if things like their jobs, kids, housing, or personal safety were at risk…or if they were the subject of a rape trial.

      i agree it is going to take some trailblazers to change the way things are, but lets not pretend that it is not gonna be a hell of a lot more hard for women. Shit, we could compare, as both of us are sluts, the hate we get thrown our ways for it, and I bet I know who would win….and I wonder why that is? I am guessing a lot of it has to do with the fact that I have tits and a cunt.

      • Roy Kay says:

        I can’t argue that you have it harder than me and that women in general have it harder men in general. So much the more that I should be “out there”, since I can afford it more. That’s what I can and will do; and it does serve notice that my woman comrades are not free fire zones in my presence.

        Interestingly, this runs afoul of the RadFem mentality that “womens spaces” should not be viewed critically by men. Thus women should be able to pile on sluts without a word spoken by me in their defense, let alone in counterattack (verbally). I hold no pacifist illusions. Strife will continue until the attackers have wounds of their own to lick. I am sure such actions will be characterized as part of a “culture of violence against women”. On that score it probably will cost me. That’s just the way I, and everyone else has to fight to eliminate a “culture of violence against sluts” – which we are both against.

  6. Well..like Roy Kay (except from a slightly different direction), I’m doing my best to rehabilitate the “slut” label against all odds…since I don’t think that women SHOULD be subject to abuse or ridicule for being openly sexual beings.

    The main difference, though, is that I do think that those “safe zones” and the opinions of those women who take so many risks in being sluts should be respected by us male supporters, since, as Ren said, it is still women who take on the majority of the abuse. As important as it is for us to defend overtly sexual women against the attacks from both the radfems, the fundies, and the MRA’s who malign them, it’s just as important for us to remember when it’s best to stand back and allow such women to speak for themselves…and to not merely reduce their actual experiences to our fantasies.

    Still…there is a lot about a principled radical defense of “slutdom” that is quite liberating and useful, especially in these days where women and girls face so much pressure to conform to the usual conservative social mores or else face serious consequences.

    Here is a particularly disgusting example of how slut-shaming is being instituted even within the confines of high school…and the tragic results:

    ABC News Online: Teen Girls Hazed On “Slut List”


  7. Ernest Greene says:

    I completely agree that there is a vicious double standard at work here and that no man will be punished for being openly sexual in the way women are, although he is more likely to run into some kind of legal beef for it if he behaves stupidly about itl.

    But no way does any man take the hits a woman does for being out about any kind of sexuality, including the hypocritical and corrupt kind. The other night, I saw Elliot Spitzer on CNN being interviewed about some political topic as an expert. No mention of his lurid, vile, hypocritcal behavior as a sex-worker basher and secret trick was everr made. With a lot of help from his “ally” Melissa Farley and the op-ed page of The NYT, this rat-prick has been “rehabilitated.”

    But the women he busted for involvement in escort services? You won’t see them on CNN unless they’re doing the perp walk.

    What I am seeing here and there, and I’m not sure how I feel about it, is that some men are starting to come under fire for being sexually venturesome. In certain cases, this takes an obviously predatory form and deserves denunciation. That guy at American Apparel seems like a pretty good example. But in the case of some male celebs, the kind of partner-hopping that used to be considered a perk of being a big, rich, famous guy is starting to be viewed as evidence of being a shallow, heartless, selfish guy. If this is about the consequences of their actions to others, okay maybe. If it’s about some abstract view of “impropriety,” not so much.

    But there is no equivlancy here. The assumptioin people sometimes make about the way I dress is that I must be gay (hey, I’m an old-school dandy and proud of it, so fuck of ye who lack style), and when I was younger I occasionally got beaten up for it, but I can still basically feel safe going where I want to go dressed as I want to dress, which isn’t true for women much of anywhere.

    Of course, there is the matter of fact that it’s statiistically more dangerous for a man to go anywhere when it comes to violence from other men for whateve reason. By virtue of gender alone, I’m eight times mor likely to end up a homicide victim than a woman, but that has very little to do with my sexuality. It’s more apt to happen because I accidentally transgressed some territorial boundary of which I was unaware and the shooting started.

    As for the word slut, I think there are moments when it’s kind of fun for friends to toss around among themselves, but overall I think it’s a derog and not worth fighting for. It’s etymological roots, as has already been pointed out here, are basically prejudicial, and while adopting a tainted label as a political stance can be meaningful in context, wearing it as a label and insisting that everyone abandon deeply ingrained negative ideas about it? Strikes me as an unwinnable fight and probably not worth waging.

  8. Ernest Greene says:

    My, some bad typos up there. This little box is really hard to proof. Sorry about that. I owe readers some missing letters.

  9. Philosimphy says:

    Yeah, it’s hard to get away from the feminist-esque stuff. Actually that would be a good term for feminists who think a woman owns her own uterus but not her actual vagina.

  10. Ian says:

    As far as I am concerned, a slut is one of two things. In general terms it is somebody with no respect for their own sex or their sexual partner. In pornography it just means a sexually active woman because porn is extremely prudish, in fact can only exist as a separate enclave in response to prudery.

    It’s obvious that when one sex is in control and the other has to make the grade or the bribe to be accepted, then the more accepted, they more kudos. If men could make money out of women paying for sex then of course men who did it for love and for free would be condemned for undercutting the rest. Olive Shreiner said in 1915 that “A wife is a socially acceptable prostitute”. That wife, and the prostitute do not want some woman ‘giving it’ for free like a man or they have no bargaining power to sell ‘it’.

    But on the whole all female animals are more selective than male. They are the ones dumped with the pregnancy, they are smaller and more vulnerable to violence, they mostly prefer the man on top doing it for them to wearing their knees out doing it for him.

    Then there’s the cultural thing. I don’t believe feminist claims that women have somehow been ‘indoctrinated’ (poor mindless creatures!) into domesticity – just the reverse, men have been pressured into losing all the human[e] characteristics that women have hung on to and often become unfeeling robots for whom sex is a passing thrill instead of part of at the least respect and fun between friends, at the most love both in everything equally together.

    Women don’t need ‘liberation’ to match their male superiors half as much as men need liberation from machismo to be as broad-ranged as women and to learn to be human beings caring for children and lovers instead of operatives and executives. And women to think of sex as for themselves shared with a friend instead of a service for men.

  11. So sorry, Ian, and with all due respect and hopefully no insults intended….but as far as I am concerned, that last statement is about as full of shit as a Thanksgiving Turducken. And a hell of a lot less filling, too.

    First off, why are you so willing to accept the dominant cultural definition of a “slut” as having “no concern for their own sex or sexual partner”?? You think that any woman with a sex dirve greater than a nun is inherently being unfaithful, or that merely wanting sex with more than one partner her entire life is inevitably harmful?? You do know that there are plenty of women who happen to be very much faithful to their families who happen to have high degrees of sex drive, do you?? But, I guess that that’s all the fault of those men whom have supposedly abandoned those essentially “female” traits of “intimacy” and “domesticity” (read that to mean, monogamy and marriage and motherhood), right??

    And how nice of you to dismiss men who actually like sex for its own pleasure as “unfeeling robots” and piss on their enjoyment of sex as “a passing thrill”…you do klnow that you are speaking to a woman who happens to like sex in the same way, right?? So….does that make Ren the victim of “male superiors”, or merely their enabler?

    And just take your concept of “male superiors” and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine, please. Men are not from Mars and women not from Venus; men and women are from Earth; both men and women are capable of empathy and compassion and caring AND of engaging in the delight of consensual sex for pleasure.

    Oh…and this Victorian concept that women should use sex as a bargining chip for financial security or for intimacy went out with Hula hoops and bell bottoms…..it assumes that only men want sex and women should only pursue it out of duty rather than pleasure. I’m so glad that i happen to respect a woman’s body and integrity a lot more than that.


    • Ren says:

      AK, Apparently, it makes me an unfeeling thrill seeking robot 🙂

      ANd I am SO from Mars….shoot where do you think thrill seeking robots come from?

  12. Ian says:

    Long time since I saw this. AK seems to summarise every prejudice I was stating a case against. I can’t help his sexist prejudices. The word ‘slut’ is used pejoratively. I accept the ‘dominant cultural definition’ because I speak the same language as everybody else. If that’s how people use the word, then how can I impose some other usage? You want to be Humpty-Dumpty in ‘Alice through the looking glass’ and tell us that when you use a word, it has to mean what you tell us it does and not how everybody else understands it? I am describing the word as it is used, not to start some crusade. I would prefer it not used at all, but it is, so let’s be sure how it is used.

    As far as I am concerned, in some cases that is mere prejudice believing sexually active women must be ‘subordinating themselves’ to men instead of equals, so I ignore any pejorative implications. In others I take it to refer to people (of both sexes) who ‘do sex’ while at the same time despising their partners for doing it with them, in the end because they feel ashamed of it in themselves.

    AK, your sexist double standard shows in your rubbish about ‘women with a sex drive greater than a nun’ and the rest of your incomprehensible sexist crap. It is exactly that sexism that I am opposing. Yes, that is what the porn industry calls ‘slut’ and it means no more than ‘sexually equal and active woman’. So why make a fuss about porn being the flip side of prudery? If women are sexually free, then prostitutes go out of business.

    All ‘slut’ means in that context is a woman free from sexual shame. As RE says, one who does not regard sex as the Victorian bargaining chip service for men and not equal enjoyment for themselves that prudes, whores and wives all rely upon. that is what I said.

    In that context it means a woman that a man regards as an object for his use without giving a damn about how she feels about it. Maybe that is how you feel men should look on the sexually active women they despise as ‘sluts’, mere whores for their sexual usage regardless of her sexual/sensual and emotional feelings, she is just ‘a slut’ for your cheap thrills – it’s not as if she were an equal human being with sexual feelings her own expecting some respect as a friend you might care about is it? To you, she’s just ‘a slut’ to use without any mutual respect as an equal human being – because she dares to be almost as sexual as you. ‘Almost’ because you’ve made it obvious you would not touch a woman you feared assertive in her own right for her own right. I wouldn’t feel interested in any less.

    If you want ‘sex for its own pleasure’ don’t despise the woman for sharing it too as ‘just a slut’ that you don’t need to respect as an equal person. ‘Sex’ involves a lot more personal respect and friendship than just a man ‘masturbating in a vagina’ (to quote ‘Female Eunuch’) and then telling all his mates what a contemble ‘slut’ she was to open her legs to him.

    Yes, our culture does regard intimacy and affection and respect as ‘feminine’ and now tries to make women feel such personal respect and friendship as much ‘restrictive’ as it did earlier from men so they’ll both believe the only things that matter are those that can be bought and caring about other people doesn’t matter a shit. Do you have some problem with caring about a woman enough to want her company and wanting to enjoy being friends supporting each other in your own little world together instead of just getting your rocks off and moving on to the next woman you see as ‘a slut’ for your contemptuous usage?

    Nothing I have seen of RE suggests that she despises sex partners she chooses as inferiors for her usage. You have an almighty rant at me because I hit out at men treating women that way without any respect for them as friends, equals, partners, people worth respect, just ‘sluts’ to fuck and move on bragging to their mates.

    Yes, men who enjoy ‘sex for its own pleasure’ regardless of the woman’s feelings do deserve to be ‘pissed on’. Often they get locked up. Sex is for women’s pleasure too, not just for you to use and despise as ‘slut’. That at least shows that if you despise the women you as good as justify raping as ‘sluts’, then you are a man only those women you despise as ‘sluts’ could consider worth touching.

    You see – or rather, you do not see – for most men, sex is not just a ‘passing thrill’ with some ‘slut’ they despise and spit on. It is pleasure shared with an equal respected friend, even if she is a friend for a very short time. She is not their ‘slut’ or their ‘whore’ not worth their consideration as a human equal for them to get their rocks off, as you seem to imagine. Expecting a man to feel those ‘feminine emotions’ of respect and caring and equality – and even ‘love’ to feel better together than apart – may indeed mean monogamy and marriage and motherhood (also fatherhood) for men who feel the woman the companion they can build a ilfe with. RE is married. Does that invalidate her in your eyes because she feels one special Commitment instead of picking up anything for sex just on the legal side of rape before kicking it out as ‘just a slut’ undeserving of human respect and emotion?

    I’ve seen her much the same as the women I used to go out with and me, not contemptuous of their sex partners seeing them as ‘sluts’ to use for sex – how did I put is? – “as unfeeling robots for whom sex is a passing thrill instead of part of, at least. fun and respect between friends”. If sex isn’t fun and not respected and not between friends, what is it then? I’ve seen nothing in RE to suggest she does not regard sex as ‘fun’ or respect her partners as ‘friends’, nothing approving of sex as grim ‘masturbation in a vagina’ with people you do not respect and hope never to see again the way you apologize for frat boys and kerb-crawlers and yes even rapists, who don’t give a living shit about the women they use and abuse to empty their balls.

    Sex is between equals. Women are sexually active equals. ‘Slut’ means somebody who despises their sex partners and ultimately sex itself regardless of which sex they are. I also happens to be used in the porn industry as a ‘jargon word’ aimed at men expected to despise women and sex that way, even when they do not. It is much the same as ‘dirty’ applied to sex. Sex is not ‘dirty’, it is ‘beautiful’. But there are jargon usages just like any other hyped advertizing where ‘dirty’ does not really mean dirty any more than ‘best value’ means the best value available.

    ‘Male Superiors’. Did you actually read what I wrote, I wonder? It is not women who need ‘liberation’ from the ‘male superiors’ that feminists imagine to excuse their own sense of inferiority to men and try to kid themselves that women free from believing themselves inferior are somehow ‘indoctrinated’ by these Mighty Male Monsters of feminist fantasy. It is a lot of men who need freedom from fear of feeling it ‘feminizes’ them to respect women they share sex with and care about her sensual and emotional feelings instead of regarding her as just something for their satisfaction whether she enjoys it or not, the way ‘feminists’ portray sex as uncaring rape.

    There is nothing whatsoever in RE’s blogs to suggest that she sees sex as something men exploit inferior women for, everything to say the opposite against conservative feminist beliefs in inferior female victimhood to a Male Mafia, exactly as I described sex as ideally ‘fun between equals who respect each other’ and you disagree.

  13. Ahhhh, Ian….you forget something.

    I wasn’t trying to interpret Ren, I was responding to your nonsense. And, I will respond to your rebuttal, which amounts to more nonsense.

    AK seems to summarise every prejudice I was stating a case against. I can’t help his sexist prejudices. The word ’slut’ is used pejoratively. I accept the ‘dominant cultural definition’ because I speak the same language as everybody else.

    Wrong, Ian. Not everyone uses the term “slut” as a pejorative or as an insult. Some women have taken the word to become a source of rebellion or even pride in themselves as sexual outlaws. In fact, Dossie Easton and Catherine Lizst even wrote a book about reclaiming the term called “The Ethical Slut”. I just so happen to see the word as more positive than most other people. And I happen to be a supporter of feminism, too, in the broad sense of equality with men. I also happen to be a democratic socialist, an independent Leftist, and someone who considers the Democratic Party as too conservative. I guess that makes me beyond the pale of what you consider “normal”?? Like I exist for your approval?? Yeah, right.

    AK, your sexist double standard shows in your rubbish about ‘women with a sex drive greater than a nun’ and the rest of your incomprehensible sexist crap. It is exactly that sexism that I am opposing. Yes, that is what the porn industry calls ’slut’ and it means no more than ’sexually equal and active woman’. So why make a fuss about porn being the flip side of prudery? If women are sexually free, then prostitutes go out of business.

    Ahhh, so now I am not only a “sexist”, but maintaining a “sexist double standard” for defending a woman’s right to claim the word “slut” as a positive word to self-define her own sexuality?? And you claim to be attacking “conservative feminist” double standards?? Hello, Pot, this is Kettle…did you know that you are black???

    You do know that there happen to be some pretty upstanding women in porn (Madison Young, Nina Hartley, Dana DeArmond, Sasha Grey) who have no problems whatsoever defining themselves with the “slut” label in defiance of what you assume to be the consensus label of derision…and I dare you to ever call these women to their face as anything near powerless or victims. Just because they don’t happen to perfectly match your template doesn’t make them any less legitimate.

    Nothing I have seen of RE suggests that she despises sex partners she chooses as inferiors for her usage. You have an almighty rant at me because I hit out at men treating women that way without any respect for them as friends, equals, partners, people worth respect, just ’sluts’ to fuck and move on bragging to their mates.

    Yes, men who enjoy ’sex for its own pleasure’ regardless of the woman’s feelings do deserve to be ‘pissed on’. Often they get locked up. Sex is for women’s pleasure too, not just for you to use and despise as ’slut’. That at least shows that if you despise the women you as good as justify raping as ’sluts’, then you are a man only those women you despise as ’sluts’ could consider worth touching.

    WOW…have you actually read anything I’ve wrote?? In your righteous rage to break me off, you may have missed my point exactly about treating ALL women — the self identified “sluts” included — with respect as full human beings. That would very much include calling out exactly those men who do happen to disrespect women as less than human beings. And, I freakin’ DARE you to list anywhere either here or anywhere else where I in any way deny a woman’s right to explore her own pleasure on her own terms. Whatever strawman you think you are attacking, it’s nowhere close to where i really stand.

    Let me make myself perfectly Goddess damn clear for your benefit, Ian: I do NOT despise women who choose to take the risk to be sexually assertive; I actually support and even worship them…even if I will probably never get the chance to even “take advantage” of them. In fact, a large part of my support for such “sluts” is that they be treated with the full respect assumed to ALL women, that their feelings and thoughts be fully considered, and that they be given the resources and autonomy to fulfill their personal destinies.

    Oh, and BTW, Ian: when I used that “sex life less than a nun” phrase, I wasn’t describing MY personal philosophy; I was describing what is the consensus belief about how the dominant culture defines women who are sexually active. Apparently, for all your attempted smack at “conservative feminists”, you just so happen to share that dominant belief, even supposing it as basic essential nature. Yet, I’m the freaking sexist simply because I defend women who defend the term “slut” for themselves??

    Ren can speak for herself pretty damn well. I can define myself pretty well, too. Try to actually comprehend what I actually say before firing your nukes.


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  15. Xena says:

    This post got me thinking about an old friend, who shamelessly (in a good way) flaunted his try-sexuality. He would try anything once, but had a preference for pre-operative trans women. I bumped into him a few years ago, after not seeing him for a long time, and I asked what he’d been doing with himself. I shoulda known. He answered with his AND MY favourite one-liner.

    “Oh, just fuckin the dog and sellin the pups…”

    I always loved that line. Disgusting, funny, and nobody believes a guy would actually do that. I mean, cross-species breeding being anatomically impossible and all. It’s just my favourite roflmao dysphemism. But I would NEVER, could never hijack it. EW! GROSS!! The metaphor just isn’t the same for a woman because it calls to mind images of stinky dog spawn in my… EEWW!!! The hair!! And the SMELL!!

    And THAT is the problem that people (and people does not include me) have with ‘sluts’. If women enjoy sex with several men in a year or a month, or hell, a week even, they assume she’s just full of jizz and defective bastard children. As if the 1960’s never happened, and there’s no such thing as the pill or condoms or spermicide. DUH- UH! That, to me, always said more about the ‘slut’-bashers than the ‘sluts’ themselves. People who get that uptight about promiscuity are usually too NASTY to use condoms.

    An FYI for whichever commenter said “when women are too promiscuous, sex workers go out of business…” It ain’t gonna happen. Most men like to get some on average between 3 and 10x/week, depending on their age and work schedules. Most women average 2x/week or less. Some of us (like me) are so DURN picky that we’d prefer to use the vibrator until something worth fucking pulls us away from whatever other non-sexual stuff is distracting us. Then we fuck like rabbits for a few weeks and go back to celibacy for months or years when we get bored with dick again. Most of my married girlfriends who are around my age have similar cycles, even with a husband around. So I can’t see sex workers losing any business anytime soon.

  16. Fuck Betty Friedan says:

    Here is a rule-of-thumb for you:

    1. There are no similarities between men and women, and there will always be different rules wether you like or not.

    2. If you act like a whore, you`ll be treated like a whore.
    Simple as that.

    If a woman is loose, she is considered a provider of services to the general public.

    To refuse to sleep with any of the boys, if you are a slut, would be considered as akin to and equally offensive to MacDonalds refusing to sell hamburgers to someone because they are black. Or physically disabled. Or something.

    It is discrimination, pure and simple.

    If you are going to be a whore, then sleep with positively anybody who wants too.
    Otherwise you are discriminating against those you refuse, and nobody likes to be discriminated.

    Especially not by a slut.

    According to the United Nations Human Rights charter, it is even illegal to discriminate anyone on the basis of color, gender, sexual orientation, religion or physical/mental handicaps.

    So if you are a slut and sleep with many dudes, but not all, those who do not get to bang you, are by definition discriminated against.

    Personally I am not a sex-offender, and I never will be.
    But I do have the greatest understanding for guys who rape sluts.

    (I hate those who rape virgins. Virgins are pure and priceless objects of art and should under no circumstance ever be touched by anyone, other than their husbands.)

    In my view, those who help themselves to sluts or whores, however, are simply activists who refuse to be discriminated against. Kind of like people did at the “sit-ins” of the 60`s.

    They are simply fighting discrimination, and they refuse to be left out.

    Imagine yourself, if you went to MacDonalds and ordered a burger and got denied.
    Either because you are black, or some other excuse, or simply told “we don`t serve your kind here”.

    Same thing with sex.

    If you dress and act like a whore, you are in effect communicating your availability.

    And if you do, you should not be surprised that customers come, and more importantly they are expecting to be served. Just like everyone else.

    And if you have, through your clothing, history and behaviour prooved you are a slut, then it should not surprise you if some customers refuse to be discriminated against, and just help themselves to the burgers.

    That`s the way the world works.

    You advertise, you get customers.
    You serve your customers or they`ll shoplift.

    So, hopefully this cleared matters up for you.
    You should have saved yourself for marriage.

    If you had, then you would have gotten everyones respect.
    But you didn`t.

    And now you are just a worthless slut, competing for respect with women that are pure.

    So, hope this didn`t ruin your day and I sincerly hope you do not end up getting raped.

    But if you do, then what can I say, except Though luck and That´s the wages of sin.

    • Oh, Ren…do allow me to kick this troll in the ass.

      Ahhh, Not Betty?? News flash, idiot: WOMEN ARE NOT BIG MACS. They have brains and free will, and they are capable of choosing which men they want to or don’t want to have sex with.And, they also have the right to say “NO.”

      Therefore, even if a woman says yes to 10 people (whether it be 10 people in a day or 10 people their entire lives, if they don’t like the 11th person and says, “No, thank you,” then that does NOT make them any more a “slut” to be ignored and violated and ridiculed.

      I don’t know what your definition of a “slut” may be, but it sure isn’t the definition of most normally functioning people. The “sluts” I know don’t kneel down at the sight of every bulge in every man’s pants, nor do they only think about getting laid 24/7/365.

      Or. maybe the real problem is that you in particular aren’t getting any because none of the locally sexually active women are gravitating towards you, and that explains why you have to play the sex hate towards women like Ren??

      Oh, and BTW…I’d say that the chances of Ren getting raped are basically between none and not on your life, mostly because she understands the value of protecting herself. That, and her love of guns.

      Also….just because a woman decides to flash cleavage and/or a bare midriff or flash a curvy behind or accentuate a nice body does not make her your property to grope, mutilate, or even openly gawk at. Unless she specifically gives you the approval, assume the default position as “Look, but don’t touch.”

      And, in case you didn’t notice, Ren is already married. And in her mid-30’s. Not your own personal teenybopper virgin. You have about as much authority to pass judgement on her personal sexual choices as..well, you don’t.

      There is a word for people who think they can help themselves to goods against the wishes of the producers of same: THIEVES.

      I hope Ren treats you a lot better than I have…or not.


    • Ren says:



      Uh, I am married, thanks. Haven’t been raped either, and well, advocate the use of firearms on those who would “like” to be rapists.

      Trolls like you amuse the heck outta me really. Yes, there are differences between men and women and yep, they do get treated differently- sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways- that is how the world is right now. No denying that, but, just to play devils advocate for a second, even using your own lame argument to do so….

      If one went into a McDonalds and STOLE food sitting there, you know, TOOK IT without KNOWING it was OKAY and PAYING for it…now, If I get myself some McDonalds and share it with someone else, no crime, but stealing it?

      That’s a crime. As is rape, ya moron, Period. CRIME. FORCING people do to things and TAKING things from them is the act of a criminal, be it theft from McDonald’s or , why yes, rape…of ANYONE…female, male, virgin or slut. Its ILLEGAL!

      Hell, even other criminals don’t have a high opinion of rapists, and the simple fact is, if men lack self control to a degree where a woman showing some skin makes them unable to control themselves and take No for an answer, they deserve to be put down because they then have proven themselves to be little more than rabid animals- plain and simple. If someone attacks you because oh, hell, they just can’t stand what a pretty car you are driving or you look like you have a full wallet or gee, they don’t like your shoes- its a crime. As is rape.

      And cupcake, I don’t much compete for respect with anyone, cause the opinions of people like you mean all of jack and shit to me.

  17. Fuck Betty Friedan says:

    I do not know who “Ren” is and neither do I care.

    I am talking about sluts & whores in general, and the article-author refered to herself as a slut, so I assumed she was one.

    BUT, here is the deal:

    A whore sells sex.

    A whore thereby runs a business.

    And if you run a business, you cannot discriminate against people.

    Discrimination is to not provide equal services to everyone, usually due to some physical caracteristics of the customer, such as looks or other carachteristics.

    For instance, in the 50`s during the period of “racial segregation” in the US,
    afro-american people had to ride at the back of the bus.

    They were not allowed to sit in “white seats” on the bus, due to their physical carachteristichs.

    So, they put up with it for a while.
    But in the end they just decided to say “Fuck this, (pun intended) I am sitting in the “white seat”.

    And then they sat in the “white seats”.

    Now in this case, the whore who do not accept everybody, is doing exactly the same as the bus companies did. She is saying “you, you, you and you” are welcome to sit in the “white seat”.

    “But not you, because I do not like you.”

    And that is discrimination.

    If a woman is a whore she runs a business.
    And if she runs a business it is infact illegal to discriminate any of the “Johns”.

    Wether they are black, brown, yellow or green, and wether they are handicapped or not.
    A whore is obligated like any other business, to provide the same amount of service to all who come calling.

    Wether you sell hamburgers or your pussy is not relevant. If you are selling something, you are a business provider and cannot deny people just because you do not like them.

    So, if you`ve seen Full Metal Jacket, there is a scene were a prostitute does not want to have sex with the black guys because they are “too beacou” (too big).

    That is discrimination. If she is a whore, she runs a business, and is therefor bound by the UN Chater on Human Rights to not discriminate against customers wether she likes them or not.

    I will repeat, I am not a sex-offender and I never will be.
    But the way I see it is the following : If a woman sells her pussy, then she runs a business like everyone else, and are thus bound by the same rules as everyother business-owner.

    Wether she sells her cunt or hamburgers make no difference what so ever.

    I don`t do neither sluts nor whores, but if I did, and the whore in question refused my business,

    Then I would take her to court and sue her for discrimination.

    • Dude….”Ren” is Renegade Evolution, the woman who both owns this blog and made that post to which you attempt to infiltrate.

      And a woman who “sells her pussy”, as you so aptly put it, is a prostitute, not a slut. A slut usually just offers it to anyone she chooses for free.

      Either way it goes, she is the one who offers to give it up, and she reserves the right NOT to sell it or give it to whomever she does not want to give it to. Just like a car owner reserves to himself the right not to sell his car to anyone who makes him an offer.

      And that is NOT considered discrimination in any way, because unlike a restaurant owner whose business is accessible to anyone with money, a woman still has a fundamental right to her body.

      And no, it is NOT discrimination just because you saw it in a fictional movie, either. The difference is that a person seeking sex from a prostitute can always find someone willing to engage with him, and simply not patronize those that do not. That’s the difference between consensual sex and rape.

      Discrimination is NOT about “I don’t like you”; it’s about “I want to deny you your right to the same rules and privileges and responsibilities that I take for myself for granted.” That makes you far more of a discriminator than I or Ren Ev or any other woman you despise as a “slut” ever will be.


    • Ren says:

      Actually- In the US to this day, if one runs a private organization, or numerous businesses, they can refuse service to people…and it’s legal. “no shirt, no shoes, no service?” yep, common. A bartender cutting off a patron whom he feels has had one too many already? Legal. People who do not fit the dress codes of any various establishment? They can be turned away or asked to leave, or gee, even arrested. So, there goes that argument….any BUSINESS has the RIGHT to refuse people service if they DO NOT follow the rules or guidelines of that business….so, try again, cupcake. There are laws regarding race in place because of discrimination, but businesses DO still have the right to refuse service to customers for Countless Other Reasons, and do so on a daily basis.

      And guess what, if you did try that court case stunt, you’d lose.

  18. Fuck Betty Friedan says:

    So in short, allthough you are radical feminists and thus think a woman stands above both the law and anything else, she does not stand above consumers rights or the laws against dicrimination.

    I my eyes, the same could be said for sluts.

    If she provides free sex, then she is providing a free community service.

    And if she is providing a free service to an extended group of people, then she does not have the right to discriminate against anyone.

    Just because she does not like them, for whatever reason, does not give her the right to discriminate them, anymore than other free services such as health-care does not have the right to discriminate.

    So, from a consumer and a anti-discrimination point of view, my sympathies goes out to all who “won`t take no for an answer”.

    Why should they put up with being descriminated?
    Wether it is by MacDonalds giving out free burgers, or by the local pub-slut giving out free sex.

    The customers have the right to partake and gain the same services as everyone else.
    And wether or not the service provider happens to “like them” is utterly insignificant.

    Simple as that. Good night.

    • Oh, I get you..you mean that if a woman declares herself to be open to more than one man outside of the realm of marriage and reproduction, then she must forgo any and all protections against sexual assault and rape, and open herself to every man who wants to bang her, whether she wants to or not…and anything less is considered to be “discrimination” by her against those who are “rejected”.

      OK….then would you allow the same responsibility for a gay man, then??

      Oh, wait..you wouldn’t, because gay men are even more evil than “slutty” women, because they don’t use their seed for the proper service of pregnancy or using women as sperm deposits.

      MRA’s are simply all the same….typical privileged assholes.


    • Ren says:

      Actually- if she is not selling it, she can be as discriminate or “mean” or whatever as she wants about it, because its her choice. She can choose to sleep or not sleep with anyone due to any factor she chooses: wealth, race, physical health, physical appearance, gender, country of orgin, age…ANY reason of her choosing, because its her PRIVATE life and she is allowed to have whatever standards she wishes. Unless she STATES she is doing it as something akin to community service, she is a private citizen engaging in her private life and gee, that shit is her own business. Having lots of sex with lots of people has never been legally defined as a public service – regardless of your opinion- and thus is not subject to any similar mindset or rules.

      And, like it or not, you know, in the US, it is LEGAL for people to dislike other folk for a variety of reasons and not associate with them. That includes women who have sex, and they are under NO obligation to have it with anyone who wants it.

      Smirk. By your fucked op logic any man who, oh, likes doing yard work or carpentry as a hobbey for himself or for his friends or for people in his neighborhood, well, he should HAVE to do it for EVERYONE even if they treat him like a dick and abuse him….after all, if he does it for SOME people, he should do it for everyone…

      Geez, what kinda communist are you, dude?



    I`d knew you`d understand.

    Have a nice day!

  20. xena says:

    Now it’s Fuck Betty Friedan? Your badly spelled British slang is getting old, Mr. Serial Troll…Austin Powers…Six-Nippled Mutant Molerat Wannabe Slutwalker…Wish I Was An 18 Year Old Slut But Come Off Like Benny Hill In Drag…

    Do you not understand that most of the people on this blog are well trained enough to look for recurring misspellings, consistently misused rhetoric, and other sloppy attempts at stylistic devices as evidence that the author of numerous obnoxious pieces of work could be–oh, the same person?!?


    I’m starting to wonder if Ren dissed this guy in person or something. He’s pretty bitter for an online doofus. I mean, even most of Hugo’s idiots–most of whom I’m assuming are former students who got crappy grades, or people who are looking for stuff to flame about on their blogs or whatever—even most of those dummies give it up when people keep telling them their sock puppets are too ridiculous to play with.

    You are so much better than this weirdo, Anthony. How are things, anyway?

    • Ren says:

      Xena- its all good, this morons utter lack of legal knowledge amused me 🙂

      • dead_vladimir says:

        he’s just a walking argument for the P220…

      • xena says:

        Yeah, he’s pretty funny. I don’t know why I even bother wasting my caps rants on weirdos like this. Except the anniversary of the Montreal Polytech massacre is coming up, and my RL weirdos seem to think they’re entitled to be more obnoxious than they ever were. I’m getting a little antsy about the possibility that I may end up doing time for homicide if the harassment doesn’t stop. I’m doing some hypothesizing about the psychosocial factors that may have caused this rampant misogyny, but not much that would change things back to the way they were 15 and 20 years ago. People are just rude&nasty now, and trying to figure out why is driving me nuckin futs.

        Blasting idiots like this is a bit of a stress valve for me, and something like a practice match, so I can use my words and keep my blade in my pocket when it really matters.

        • xena says:

          Oops. The above comment is a response to Ren’s “It’s all good.” The comment below is a response to dead_vladimir’s “P220” comment.

  21. xena says:

    Why waste the ammo when rocks and discarded beer bottles are free? Chickenshits like this hide out behind fake names on blogs precisely because they’re usually about 5’4″ and pudgy, and ‘teh bitches’ won’t give them the time of day, let alone let them sperminate in their ladyparts.

    I bet I could whup him with me little hammer 😛

  22. […] to say ‘No’ after the third man or so” (from Renegade Evolution’s blog):https://theger.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/slllluuuuutttt/#comment-6464 (righteous responses from Ren and others […]

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